What runes are above the curve?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by davre, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    I don't think anyone expects to achieve perfect balance from this thread. It's more to just identify individual runes which are too efficient, champs like k'ento and primordial enigma have been an issue for a while and it's at least nice to see what other people think.
     
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  2. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    calisk is just crying cause it's too unusual for him to play ST that's got weak spots. Pox is in a very good state in terms of balance and it's incredibly enjoyable to play it such. Before, there was the vast community and working client but the imbalanced tons of sh** which made you rage quit pox quite a lot. Now, it's inversed, and frankly, I'd always pick the latter since I find it ridiculous to play a game in which you rage because of balance design. So calisk, just man up and adapt to the situation and enjoy the remnants of the OP that ST has while it lasts until the next patch :>
     
  3. Karamasov

    Karamasov Lord of SL & Master of Challenges

    ST will still be really strong after next patch. Just saying.
     
  4. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    I have little to say on what is or isn't over the power curve but lets say you turn them all into goblin archers, missions accomplished they suck ass now and are no fun to use any more, 8 more runes will now be over the new power curve.

    If you made every rune in pox goblin archers then thr goblin archers in ud or kf would be op due to the faction bonuses, so you get rid of all the faction bonuses, but the the spells in st are better support spells so you get rid of all the support runes, then the avatar in is is better so we get rid of them....perfect balanced is now achieved everyone is identical...and the game stopped being fun years before this point.

    You cannot have balance, and i mean it's not even approachable. What you can do is hammer in nails, but collectible game is fun because of nails. Nobody gives a Bane Shift about using goblin archers they want to use kentos and enigmas they want cool runes with cool mechanics, so many runes with cool mechanica are locked behind nerfed mechanics and ridiculously high cost champs that the gane is drowning in it's own balance attempts

    Anyway if something is nerfed it should be with the intent to cycle other runes into play and promote new themes when done along side buffes in other areas, not just nerf things because it's above the curve, nobody likes a stale meta but nobody likes playing the same deck but worse every patch either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  5. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Thats all well & good but thats not what the intent here is at all. no one is attempting to make every rune the same but there is such a thing as champions which significantly out perform others & it detracts from the fun of those on the other end of it. There is a large difference between design & balance & if you think that to have a game in a playable & balanced state you must detract from all unique design then sorry you don't know what you're talking about
     
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  6. Karamasov

    Karamasov Lord of SL & Master of Challenges

    FS

    Up: Chilling Scale: Too much AP from 7 SPD and exertion + regen combo.
    Up: Dusk Shaman. 6 range, escalation and defensive abilities.
    Runner up: Cleansing mist. Should probably go to 25n and we can take it from there.
    Down: Jellebrium Overmind: Lots of utility, but squishy and have to get into the heat of battle to really do work.

    FW

    Up: Elsarin Reaper. A unit with 7 spd 1-2 range and defensive abilities should not have soul strike.

    IS

    Up: Conscripted Warrior: Way too cheap.
    Runner up: Plainswalker: Does way too much for its price.

    KF

    Up: Inhibit Power: 4 turns aoe confused it definitely over the top.

    SL:

    Up: Dunes Manticore. Cheap, aoe dam, and debuff, 4 turn disable, healing, spell cost reduction.
    Up: Skeezick Whorl: Cheap, repulsion on ranged unit, ranged slam and anti-heal.
    Down: Myx Broodlord: If it wasn’t bugged, I think most decks would be able to deal with it without spending too many resources.

    SP:

    Up: Arroyo Riftlord: Puts too much meat on the board.
    Runner up: Feshcaller Mika: Cheap, healing, defensive ability, summons, aura. Does too much too well.
    Down: Cyclops Ritualist. Seems to be fine after the ritual changes.

    ST:

    Up: Crystal Phoenix: The price of a spell and meat on the board. And it often goes off CD before a similar spell would have done. While doing work, if only as a gale or swap enabler.
    Runner up: Aspect of Infinity: Cheap, CC, hard to deal with and the splits.

    UD:

    Up: Chosen of Osarius: Too cheap for defensive abilities, high dam, AP gen, aura and more aura.

    Split:
    Sotm: Way too big a presence on the board and requires too specific counters.
     
  7. Fentum

    Fentum I need me some PIE!

    I use Goblin Archers. Nasty little blokes.

    Just saying.
     
  8. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Heh
     
  9. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    the intent in this thread and the million and a half that came before it is to reach some nebulous imaginary form of balance for pox that nobody can agree on that literally does not exist and cannot exist.

    an imbalanced system like in pox's case thrives with some things being stronger and in some cases vastly stronger then other things, but those things in a vacuum are not how the game is played, every champ in every other faction is stronger then the individual moga but moga repeatedly comes back as a devastating theme due to the faction as a whole. perfect imbalance within the context of pox is about every faction within the whole of the 8 having themes among them that work as checks for every thing else so that no matter what is on top, something exists within one of the 8 that can beat it, and imo that has been the case within pox for years, but most players only want to play a single faction and that is an issue imo.

    design for pox is making that perfect imbalance a reality, not nerfing everything that people enjoy using because it stands out and calling it a design.

    like i said nerf every rune in this thread, without exception every single suggestion, once thats all done you'd be right back in here doing it again to the next set of stand outs, it's an endless cycle of fruitless effort when done in that way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  10. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    @calisk I think you should take your spiel to your own thread rather than filling this one with it.
     
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  11. PoxBot

    PoxBot The King of Potatoes

    Balancing is pretty much a necessity in any competitive game. Shooters do it, MOBAs do it, card games do it, strategy games do it and Pox does it because nobody is willing to play unfair games long enough. Shadowverse at one point tried to just run expansions with a single patch per expansion cycle and then it shifted to a balance patch per month just because the minimalist approach started backfiring on them. Yugioh Duel Links in all its powercreepy glory which lead to cards being naturally powercreeped within months has a forbidden/limited list in place for when the game can't handle certain stuff and Hearthstone has set rotations on top of balance patches.
     
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  12. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Yep balancing can be done though there are many ways to do it.

    Picking 8 stand out runes and shooting is not a good way, it simple lacks the finesse and required thought to do a proper balancing of the meta, and when only looking at them in a void can result in acceptable runes being nerfed and themes falling to the way side.
     
  13. PoxBot

    PoxBot The King of Potatoes

    I agree with that. Though I was under the assumption this was mostly a discussion thread. I don't remember who said it on discord but it seemed like the next patch was basically already done and couldn't be modified.
     
  14. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Always a next patch and discussions frequently lead to nerfes
     
  15. Chris

    Chris I need me some PIE!

    The idea of building a deck is to make it strong. Strong players can move from faction to faction with equal success, what actually is the problem?

    This is what I think the problem is - The players. More specifically players that build a deck with 0 consideration for what the current meta is and expect to be able to win against spirit of the mountain with no magic damage or kento with no distract/stun or that their all range deck should be able to kill enigma. Get real and tweak your deck or play something else.
     
  16. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    I'm honestly surprised that so many people have gotten their knickers in a twist over this, It has nothing to do with deckbuilding or trying to perfectly balance the game. We are just trying to identify runes that might be too efficient and having a negative effect on the game because of that. If you don't want to join in with the discussion then go start your own thread to whine about it.
     
  17. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    sorry but that's the same thing...

    first if you have a discussion in public forum expect public discussion, and this is not off topic as it's directly touching upon the heart of your conversation and denying its very reason to exist.

    second your very premise for wanting to nerf these things aka "identifying runes that might be too effecient" is the flawed logic I'm saying is wrong of which I've mentioned numerous times prior.

    in no way do I deny that in a void a single champ can be overly efficient compared to any other champ in a void, but I deny that that is an issue to begin with, for numerous reasons of which I've touched on before as well, and I don't feel like repeating myself further.
     
  18. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    You aren't joining in with the discussion you are derailing it.
     
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  19. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    no I don't agree with your discussion but that's not the same as derailing it really. a discussion on whether or not the discussion should be had is the very first thing that should occur in this case, the burden of proof should imo fall on the person that is claiming there is an issue.

    I can claim anything i.e Nora beast is the most OP thing since soko's nerf hammer, I should then need to prove why, and how do we do that without even slightly agreeing upon a method to accomplish that?
     
  20. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    Do it in your own thread then.
     
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