What runes are above the curve?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by davre, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    With the year coming to an end and a lot of time passing between balance patches, I thought it might be a good idea to get a general, faction-neutral consensus going about what champs are too strong.

    In an attempt to prevent this from devolving into a bunch of faction zealots deflecting criticisms about their own favourite runes, I am putting forward some rules. Every post that follows these rules will be added to the OP.

    1: Nominate or vote for 1 champ per faction. 8 nominations total.
    2: You can downvote any champion nomination, but you must nominate another champ from the same faction in order to balance it out.

    Descriptions about why you think these champs are above the curve are welcome.

    Will add my own nominations tomorrow so hopefully someone else is willing to start.
     
    Etherielin, Woffleet and Alakhami like this.
  2. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    FS
    Firk Mindcaller (3)
    ChillingScale (2)
    Stillwater Mutant (2)
    Augur of the Deep (1)
    Snaptooth Dusk Shaman (1)
    Marsh Song (1)
    Tortun Fishkisser (0)
    Mucker (0)
    Jellebrium Overmind (0)

    FW
    Genesis Lich (3)
    Bone Circle Archmage (2)
    Skeletal Lerper (1)
    Elsarin Reaper (1)
    Elsari Bazaar (1)
    Xulos (1)
    Bone Circle Staff (1)
    Golden Lamia (0)

    IS
    Pureblood Plainswalker (3)
    Terraformer (2)
    Conscripted Warrior (1)
    Ironfist Minister (1)
    Bastion the Avenger (1)
    Conscripted Warrior (1)
    Priest of Valdace (1)
    Zedin of Sarnghaver (0)

    KF
    Snake Charmer (3)
    Elven Strategist (2)
    Forest Lerper (2)
    Ranger Elite (1)
    Nectar Fairy (1)
    Inhibit Power (1)

    SL
    Primordial Enigma (4)
    Dunes Manticore (3)
    Aspect of Violence (2)
    Skeezick Whorl (1)
    Myx Broodlord (0)
    Valdaci Shieldwarden (0)

    SP
    Whirling Quarry (4)
    Cyclopean Firecase (2)
    Feshcaller Mika (2)
    Arroyo Riftlord (1)
    Rock Trap (1)
    Cyclops Ritualist (0)

    ST
    K'ento (3)
    Strig Warlock (2)
    Crystal Phoenix (2)
    Jakei Extinguisher (1)
    Aspect of Infinity (1)
    Frostfall Vanguard (1)
    Icefang (0)

    UD
    Chosen of Osarius (3)
    Minotaur Stoker (2)
    Pincushion (2)
    Thunderhoof (2)
    Ruby Crawler (1)

    SPLIT
    Spirit of the Mountain (10)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  3. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Great idea. I've done these off the top of my head without looking at meta lists, so please correct me people.

    FS

    Firk mindcaller. People will disagree with this, and I'm sure there are more broken champs out there (maybe fishkisser?) But the global soultap ability is freaking bonkers. It shows how strong this champion is that it will be run in a bg in which it is the only psychic damage source, and still perform well.

    FW

    Genesis Lich. The rune is so cheap for what it does, and even if you never get a phylactery respawn off, you've probably forced your opponent to use an aoe/seism to take down the spawned relic.

    IS

    Barbarian guardian, plains walker and minister are solid runes, but I think I'd give this to terraformer. Cheap aoe is so valuable.

    KF

    Snake charmer. The rune is so cheap and can do so many different things, I think this champion is the reason rangers are good. Although vashal ranger and mirror blade are also top contenders for this spot. Maybe even elven strategist - I think he's flown under the radar for a long time. I don't think KF is more broken than other factions, I just know it better than other ones, so can identify the problems better.

    ST

    Icefang. Like, come on. Is there even a discussion here?

    SP

    Hmm. Maybe Cyclops ritualist? Rune just seems so cheap for what it does, countering so many things Im not too sure on this though. Mika and quarry also jump out at me. Maybe even flamefist for the early game aggro potential.

    SL

    Dunes manticore still does a lot for the cost, but I think I'd give this to skywing rumbler. Reinforce on any half decent champion is so strong, especially when you have in theme short lived guys.

    UD

    Minotaur stoker maybe? Not too sure on this one either. But being able to cleanse, dispel and gen Nora on deploy is pretty good.
     
  4. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    Sure, gonna give it a whirl:
    KF: Elite Ranger - she's one of the few champs in the game with Surge: Enemy. It's alright on a support champion, but she isn't one. Her scaling is something your enemy cannot counter and her Initiative 2 means she's always going to be super-impactful. I believe she should have that removed and replaced with some other damage ability.

    IS: Conscripted Warrior - It's a very strong body with Reinforce and Knockback 3 for 40 or so nora that can also run around with high DEF. It's a ridiculous champion and I think the problem here is the abilities it has and not the body - changes to Reinforce and Knockback 3 would fix it and stop him from being a font contesting god.

    ST: Oh boy.

    SP: I'd argue that Whirling Quarry is overly efficient vs melee champs. I think the easiest way to change it is to modify its unique ability so that it can proc only once on each turn whenever the Quarry is hit instead of oftentimes being a death sentence for melee champs. Other than that it's hard to say because you don't see SP that much. Cyclops Ritualist comes to mind but rituals are getting changed so I think he's an already resolved case.

    SL: Primordial Enigma. Why does it have Tremor? It already has major ranged hate in form of its unique ability, why does it have to have melee hate too? Otherwise I'd consider Dunes Manticore because it's a swiss knife support. I also find Vitality: Creation to be an issue and I believe all Vita: Creation champs are difficult.

    UD: Can't think of anything else other than Pincushion perhaps. Mostly because it has damage: shield physical on it as well - not a fan of champs that are both ranged and melee hate. Otherwise Thunderhoof but that's already getting fixed to my knowledge.

    FW: Genesis Lich. Mostly because of Vita: Creation. Hard to say otherwise as FW is a rare occurence in the game atm.

    FS: Fishkisser. I don't mind its tankyness, just its damage. It shouldn't hit so hard.
     
    Tweek516 likes this.
  5. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    sp: cyclo summoner completely shuts down a bg that relies on summons.

    ud: pretty ok. maybe stoker gives too much cleanse to a faction that shouldn't have

    fw: faction seems balanced right now but maybe too few players. sure skeles are strong and pretty easy to play, but i wouldn't say there's something over the top. genesis lich is a top unit, not sure if nerfworth.

    sl: manticore does everything, even coffee if you ask kindly

    kf: charmes is too cheap, too strong and can be played 2x boost and camraderie for max effect. elite ranger too would like some nerf on dmg, render is enough.

    st : kento and icefang. but first, spells and relics. they are more" over" than champs.

    is: pureblood should lose zealdmg or terraformer should have only 1 aoe.

    fs: fishkisser got dmg nerfed so its still strong but not over the top. 11dmg isn't too much. maybe might go to 10 but not sure. mindcaller sure very effective.
    maybe the one that might need a look is mucker. not for being op, but for being too hard to deal with for new players...
     
  6. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Yeah i change my SL choice to enigma. That rune is so efficient.
     
  7. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Going to need a bit more out of you before I add your nominations:
    SP: Cyclops Ritualist
    UD: Minotaur Stoker
    FW: Please add a nomination. If you are downvoting genesis lich, add a second nomination.
    KF: Snake Charmer
    SL: Dunes Manticore
    ST: Kento
    IS: Pureblood plainswalker
    FS: fishkisser downvoted, mucker nominated. Add a second nomination to replace fishkisser.
     
  8. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    fw genesis voted
    fs: down fishkiss 2nd mindcall
     
  9. Elric

    Elric I need me some PIE!

    FS: Augur of the Deep...Slam should just not exist on ranged champs.

    FW: Golden Lamia...simply because Sabotage: Lethargy allows for draw-wins on certain maps. I would have voted for Bone Circle Archmage as it just does too much, but with the upcoming change to Rituals, it'll probably be much more in line.

    IS: Pureblood Plainswalker...True Nature on this champ is crazy as it dispels and confuses...so, if you have a bubble or any defensive spell/ability, it dispels it BEFORE the damage processes.

    KF: Snake Charmer...just so cheap being in the 50-nora range while bringing so much to the table.

    ST: K'ento...just ridiculous even AFTER the supposed nerf that she was hit with in the last patch. She's a 1-woman wrecking crew. No champ can take her one-on-one. The optimal 75-nora K'ento is far above any other champ. There are actually SO many choices in ST, including Icefang, but Icefang is getting a nerf in the incoming patch.

    SP: Cyclopean Firecase...the damage output that you can get for an optimally-run 54 nora is just crazy. Also, if you factor in the SP faction bonus, it will take off 5 nora on deploy, for a 49-nora 6-speed Leap 3 champ.

    SL: Aspect of Violence...if you don't kill it, it'll win the game for you all by itself. Myx Broodlord is also rage-quit worthy...however, if Hunter:Small no longer gives the 2 extra damage to Trample, it'll be manageable. Note: right now, it does 4 damage for every movement even to 2x2 champs.

    UD: Pincushion...range can't touch him, and melee get punished with damage aura and damage shield.
     
    Xirone likes this.
  10. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Adding my own nominations to keep things moving:

    FS: Chillingscale - just a perfectly optimized pile of stats with a nice spot of self-synergy in the regen/exertion upgrades that let it double tap or rush a font as needed with only short-term consequences.

    FW: Bone circle archmage - jack of all trades, capable of stalling midfont, creating damage value over time, countering opposing summons/swarms, and chipping away in combat.

    IS: Ironfist minister - always a great deploy. While several factions have access to champ-based powerturns, minister is the only one that can come out ahead in a one-on-one.

    KF: Forest lerper - amazing burst potential allows it to one-round champs with minimal support.

    SL: Myx Broodlord - I have been an outspoken defender of trample, but the buggy nature of hunter:small (adds the extra damage against large units while defensive abilities such as tough3 only reduce the damage to 2 per move) is only part of the problem, as its extreme natural tankiness makes it nearly impossible to remove it following an aggressive trample turn.

    SP: Whirling Quarry - whirling stones proccing for 0ap every turn creates massive bonus damage potential on top of an already great seism + stone barrage kit.

    ST: Strig Warlock - dark favor provides immediate up-front value, followed by a ranged unit that creates one of the best swarms in the game.

    UD: Thunderhoof - fairly map dependent but one of the few champs that can compete with forest lerper in terms of solo one-rounding.
     
  11. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    I wanted to point out that I find Forest Lerper to be stupid, but since he's not currently on a pedestal like Ranger Elite, I didn't suggest him - he just needs to lose Startle and he'll be fine.
     
  12. PoxBot

    PoxBot The King of Potatoes

    16 votes and 8 downvotes in theory if I'm reading this right. Is that a fair assessment?
     
  13. Fentum

    Fentum I need me some PIE!

    Or simply drop startle to give Enrage 1 not 3
     
  14. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Sure, you could make any multiple of 8 votes if you like. The purpose of the rules is to avoid piling on a single faction and to hopefully catch some misplaced assessments through volume.
     
  15. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    Since I haven't downvoted anything, I'd like to use that to downvote Snake Charmer - I don't think she's an issue by herself, just that she makes it easier for other champions out there to start rolling out and being a problem like Ranger Elite, Forest Lerper and a couple other champs, who are problematic - her value will go down along with the aforementioned if these are hit as she's a support champion. I raise a point for Forest Lerper because of Startle - removing it is the way to go.

    Also because there are just so many sick ST runes - Extinguisher because that's some sick efficiency.
     
  16. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    UD: Chosen of Osarius, 72 nora good damage, tanky as firk thanks to void shield & hunter meek. outside of combat generates 8 ap per turn. Creates additional relic after hitting something twice. Just a really strong brawler that basically every UD deck that doesnt run a theme includes.

    FW: Xulos. Has an immediately and massive impact on the board the moment he is deployed with DF: 3 & then continues to largely dominate the game with death pacts every 3 rounds which do nothing to his maximum HP thanks to vitality & all the cheap units for xulos to drain. Basically a global spell on deploy & then ED every 3 rounds. fantastic champion & the best hero/champion FW has.

    SL: Valdaci Shieldwarden, Huge AOE spell hate with weaken spells & dishing out combat awareness. Really tanky & deals good damage too

    SP: Fetishcaller Mika, Strong summons that can attack right off the bat, AOE healing, abash makes her difficult to 1 round despite only being a support unit & is good Spell hate.

    IS: Zedin of Zargnhaver, Tough 3 & warding for 10 nora. Immune to melee attacks most of the time, deals good damage & debuffs with sunder to boot. Also somewhat is anti power turn thanks to rebuke though most of the time that ability does negligible damage.

    ST: Aspect of Infinity. Just Firk this thing, it does nothing but sit around all game & deal global damage every 8 rounds & walks around throwing everything up in force barriers. Extremely difficult to chip to death as well thanks to ST's healing the inevitable time bomb that is her cloning ability & mirrored.

    KF: Elven Stratergist, 50 HP surge enemy, is a relocation monster with swap & pull & also has battlemaster 3. these are lots of really good traits for a champion that only costs 72 nora.

    FS: Stillwater Mutant, Voidshield, catalyst psychic (which tends to leading to units being soultapped & thus providing nora next round as well as giving him +2 damage & -2 damage swings on every interaction they have. After going to 50% health completely disables the entire enemy line
     
    Xirone likes this.
  17. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    omfg, warchief stone clan still not nerfed? what the hell, I cried about it for ages. tough 3 is 15 nora, warding ain't really a drawback and the ability also gets transfered after death. for it to be balanced, it needs to be at least 18-20 nora.
     
  18. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    warding in is might be a bit of drawback. no might, no rd...
     
  19. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    yeah but not enough of a drawback to make it -8 to 10 nora
     
  20. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    btw, I think it'd be interesting if we made similar thread regarding abilities.
     

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