We should probably talk about reinforce

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BurnPyro, Aug 27, 2016.

  1. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Now that it's on Skywing Screecher as well, we should probably sit down for a little chat.

    Reinforce: When this unit is deployed the closest friendly champion you own is refunded to the rune dock with a cooldown of 10 and you gain 50% of it's nora cost.

    More so in Skywings, with rumblers and transmission relay, screecher is absolutely absurd. In case you're out of the loop, you use it on almost dead champs (for instance, a rumbler with short lived), you get a 50% refund and transmission relay put's it's cooldown back to 0 next turn. Effectively bypassing the downsides of both rumbler and screecher.

    It's an extremely cheap champ that functions the same way matriarch sarinda does. Deploy at the right time and swing a huge amount of nora. It's less obnoxious on the conscripted warrior in IS because they don't abuse the same interactions, but the champ is still stupidly cheap. Not to mention first turn deploys are incredibly cheap.

    So in summary:

    • The combination of Rumblers and Transmission relay in Skywings is very strong in Skywings paired with Screecher. Probably too strong. Definitely too strong.
    • The reinforce champ itself is dirt cheap, paired with the 50% refund or when going first, is incredibly efficient in it's own right.

    Possible solutions:

    The refund should probably be toned down (down to 35% or 40%) in combination with a cost increase (a start of +5, perhaps?) of the reinforce ability itself. While we must be careful that this doesn't outright shoebox the champs, because it's a very hit and miss interaction, steps must be taken.


    Thank you for reading, leave your constructive comments below

    Yours truly,

    Burny
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  2. phdstax

    phdstax Active Member

    No, and here is my reason why . . .
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  3. 5amb0

    5amb0 I need me some PIE!

    Why not change transmission relay?
     
  4. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    nerf burning steel, hard counters salaman too much
     
  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I am not convinced it needs a change.

    But even in the event that it does, I don't see a point in reducing the % to something harder calculate when a cost increase to the ability is functionally similar.

    At the same time, this argument is specific to Skywings which also suggest if there is an issue, the best target may not necessarily be reinforce. We could also hit something else or the champ directly.
     
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  6. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    I mean, transmission relay is just as problematic

    The problem is that reinforcing champs with short lived is the best of both worlds, and instead of just losing that champ you get 35 nora + a 56 nora screecher that's probably worth around 70 ish. And then rumbler is back next turn.

    If we take out transmission relay, you're still giving huge swings to the screecher player, albeit less impactful. I've been playing skywings specifically around this, and I end up reinforcing a lot more than rumblers. Even stuff that's on relatively low hp, smash it in there, grab the nora and smack them champs down.
     
  7. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    I only really find it problematic with Rumbler which may change when surge gets a look through.
     
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Sounds like you are using Reinforce for its intended purpose?

    In any case, the point is that it seems specific to Skywings, so I am not convinced Reinforce itself needs to change, if anything needs to change at all.

    Conceptually, I love the way the Screecher interacts with Skywings and the way the theme plays. This is the type of thing we should encourage in theme design. If it's slightly too efficient, sure, we can nerf the champ, or nerf some other pieces (Rumbler/Relay).
     
    aseryen likes this.
  9. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Fair enough.
     
  10. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Ty for acknowledging it is not Reinforce...

    The whole point of unique abilities is for these interactions. Conscript Warrior is definitely a rune I like to play and having a hit to him because of an out of faction rune makes no sense. Just glad the conversation is being directed away from nerfing to oblivion.
     
  11. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    I'm sorry if you perceived it that way, that was not my intention.
     
  12. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    I don't think Transmission Relay should exist, It's like dragons basically have the FW bonus in a relic.
     
  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    FW bonus is worth ~25 nora + runeslot? Nice.
     
  14. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Not even specifically you, was just worried that was where it was heading. I don't know a lot of the history on Reinforce, I know it was once on Salaman Daredevil and I'm not sure how or if it was abused. I just agree with Sok that the problem may be from how Skywings are interacting with Reinforce and that is where the abuse is from.

    Phylactery and Gift units seem to be sleepers for good Reinforce combos however there may be too much draw back from those runes to make the combo viable and that is why there is abuse in SL rn, because Skywings are too efficient to be interacting FF with reinforce.
     
  15. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    New sig right here
     
    anima62, Woffleet, Etherielin and 2 others like this.
  16. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    For ****s sake, do you guys need a moment with that to figure out that I don't mean it absolutely literally?

    The mechanic for each is completely different, obviously I don't think they equate perfectly.

    Firking. Hell.
     
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  17. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Don't worry

    We still think that FS and SP bonus beat 25 nora + runeslot
     
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  18. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    You both seemed to completely miss the point too.

    I was talking about faction identity, never said anything about balance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  19. DrakeArron

    DrakeArron The King of Potatoes

    Holy crap! Someone asking for a nerf to their own faction? Everyone start building bunkers, the world is clearly ending! This hasn't happened in all of history- I mean, even cavemen playing "fire or club" never did this. This is clearly the end of the world. Perhaps if we work fast enough we can get on a spaceship before the disguised lizard society Burn is a part of is revealed and they destroy us all....
     
  20. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    You jest, but burn is usually among the first to call out things in SL that he thinks are over the top.
     
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