Upcoming FW faction bonus and boon Change Pre-Discussion

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I disagree with you on FW's power right now, so yes. I think FW has unique tools that position them to handle problems other factions can't, and they have oppressive late game if properly constructed. I think this change to FW's bonus should be carefully monitored.
     
    TeaScholar likes this.
  2. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    You might be right if kf and angels are dealt with. One thing about fw though is that their hero are extremely high nora cost and this might hold back the faction. Also in my opinion they have many runes that are sandbagged too hard like mysian lamia, obisidian venger, general korsian, draco-lich, and many others. I know tomb is good but I am not sure it makes up for how much these high nora cost can cripple fw early game when not running cheap meat champs. Especially when other factions have nora gen as well or much lower costed champs. Being able to survive early is important for font control and positioning. FW hero aren't the strongest hero set but I am pretty sure they cost way more than most other factions set of hero.

    FS, KF, IS, ST, SP, all have more powerful more nora efficient hero than fw. For UD klzik is more of a spider theme hero, and maxxarek needs his own bg. Vindrax is more of a theme hero as well but also strong in mixed, same with vex but not as strong as vindrax. Valdac cost is probably too high but he is pretty good when deployed at the right time. All of fw hero seem to be overcosted and not particularly powerful. Serkan is similar to menalaus but with 2 less speed at around the same cost... Xulos has a good on deploy effect but is one of the weakest hero in this game once deployed and cost over 100 nora. Moragen is probably one of the weakest hero in this game yet cost nearly 100 nora.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    FW does have a lot of high cost units. The thing is, a good BG just won't run those, and the aggressively costed and dangerous units that FW does have are competitive with other factions. Combined with a strong mid-late game with the current bonus, a strong late game from Tomb, and their bevy of quirky answers, FW becomes a viable faction. I agree they aren't S-tier right now - maybe not even tier 1. But adjustments to FW should be careful.
     
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  4. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    If u can't at least make a draw at early game then there won't be mid game or late game, snowballing is very scary in this game especially in maps with fewer fonts(2-3).
     
  5. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Dark Knight isn't really sandbagged or overcosted, it has the problem that all second life champs have. They are expensive since they reanimate, so their stats are generally lower to keep their prices from being too high. There's been a number of alternate suggestions for fixing second life abilities.
     
  6. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Many do not run Tomb and Tomb only works well in big map. It needs to trigger 25 times lol to get its nora back and when ur facing Undead champions it basically does nothing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  7. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    It'd be nice if a lot of those high cost units got a cost reduction and became runnable in competitive bgs after these changes. A lot of those overly costed runes fw has are some of the coolest runes in the faction and it kinda sucks that running them greatly increases your chance of losing the game.
     
  8. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    Making the champs weaker on reanimate with lower stats and or hp and reducing the cost of the reanimate ability might help. Doing the reverse, having them start weaker and then getting stronger on death would be cool but in competitive games that does not seem practical imo.

    I disagree with you though about the cost of reanimate. eternal lich, the frost lich, and dark knight are all pretty weak even by fw standards. These champions pretty much are never used with the exception of a rare dark knight sighting just because it has resistance.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  9. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Every faction has its share of high cost runes. As long as there are low cost runes to go with them, it isn't a problem. The problem comes up when there are themes that are overcosted across the board, due to abilities that may not be wanted, such as liches with life drain aura, those themes become unplayable.

    Lowering the ability cost of reanimate and adding a nora cost when reanimate triggers seems to be the most popular option. It would also be applied to champs with rider abilites.
     
  10. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think fw has a lot more overcosted runes in general though, especially fw's exotic and legened runes. Many runes that should be meta aren't run because they just cost too much nora to deploy. It is hard to tell how much the current faction bonus plays a part in this though, maybe with a real bonus this would be less of an issue I am not sure.

    activating the cost of reanimate on death sounds like a good idea.

    Balance is the goal but I really hope FW does not get shorted out of fear of it becoming too strong. It has been the weakest faction for long enough, adjustments in the future can be made as needed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  11. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    It needs 25 triggers, but you get the number of opposing champions in triggers every turn. If the opponent has ~4 champions, it pays off like Deep Miner. Not great, but not super slow either. Scales well.

    To @mw24 comments lower on, totally. I would love for FW to have some of their cool and overcosted runes made cheaper. I would love that for every faction. So lets do that! Put things that are too expensive up in the Crate, make some suggestions, and talk about it in faction forums. It's fun and productive to kick those ideas around.
     
  12. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Totally true, early game is important. But FW doesn't even need to hit a draw by mid game: they just need to not lose too badly. And playing to a draw is much easier and more powerful than playing to a win.
     
  13. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Who decides what runes should be meta? A common opinion I've seen is that runes that were meta before the revamp should be meta still. Others say that runes that are more rare should be meta, which most of the community disagrees with, since rarity and power shouldn't be correlated due to the game becoming too inaccessible. Should named runes all be meta because they're a main part of the game lore?
     
  14. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    wtf...
     
  15. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Any word from @Sokolov on this potential bonus?
     
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I am not looking at this right now, but I'll look at this thread later when it's closer to the time.
     
  17. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Righto, thanks, just unsure what the current timetable is for changes. Heard a tentative mid-term comment from Moles, just wondering if this is on a track for consideration, or if there are fundamental problems that would exclude it.
     
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    FW bonus change is absolutely not slated for mid-terms.
     
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  19. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Good to know. I know there are already a ton of categories in the Crate, but maybe a separate one for more long-term changes? That was part of why I brought it up, because it's in the crate with some other stuff that sounds like it's coming soon.
     
  20. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Or we can leave FW alone for now and let those who never posted in Fw forums ever before who are all of the sudden now posting L2P.

    If mofos don't run tomb or tome- That's their fault. L2FP FF F MF W.


    If you're out of date with the times, and you're running Bane Shift like dark knight and eternal lich, and judge FW's power level off of that? What kind of heresy is THIS?! Have thou NO knowledge of FW's current meta? AT ALL?

    We have smaller fish to fry guys. I once again suggest we try shifting liches up into more supportive roles.

    I imagine the boon change would likely be incorporated when faction bonuses are tinkered with. Or at this point, even considered a matter of legitimate thought and concern. You guys are free to discuss, however. I won't stop you.
     

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