summon relics are cancer

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by OriginalG1, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    As someone who pilots this deck himself, I will confirm that positioning against this is extremely difficult. Even if you manage to stave it off for a few turns, at SOME point you are going to put yourself in a position where the combo works well enough, and every turn you stall is another turn nora accrual for an even bigger combo.

    It is a bit of a one-trick pony though in most cases, and even when it does kill something you are usually just trading off nora for nora and the deck devotes a lot of deck space and resources to the combo itself, and can lack a true way to push for the win.

    The deck type does have valid counters, but they are usually things like Demolish which ignores relic HP anyway, and if you do not have those things then it does lead to a drawn out game even if you managed to win mostly because you have to slowly kill off the Barricades safely at range.

    A large part of the issue is less the base HP of the relic (which may or may not change as a result of the whole relic pass anyway), but rather the fact that Barricade Barrier the ability came into the picture, allowing for "nora free" generation of a lot more of these things, whereas traditionally the deck needed to time the Barricade and Snowburst spells together just right.

    Plus the Builder adds +10 HP with Mason's Spire 1, which will definitely be nerfed.
    Etherielin and nepyonisdead like this.
  2. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    I have faced the deck a few times the past few days and my biggest issue is not losing units to Burstcade but that the deck is incredibly hard to advance against. Even if you position yourself so as not to lose multiple units per 'Bursticade' you are then staring at a wall of 4-800 HP (With Mason Spire) that is surrounded by Deep Snow. I would consider my deck particularly suited to face it with 2 Terraformers with Lava Storm and 2 units with Ruin but by the time I finally break through the walls it is being used a second time.
  3. Elves Rule

    Elves Rule I need me some PIE!

    This is just theory, but I can't think of any good way to position against the combo at all.
    Even if you totally split up, they still get 2 48dmg bursts.
    So the other option would be to group up in a way to stop barricades being spawned, but then any sort of aoes will hit all your guys, and the bursticade will hit even more champs even if it does less to each.
  4. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

  5. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    The issue isn't the combo, it's that masons spire was put on a champ that combos his own ability. Jesus people, just remove masons spire from him, problem solved.
  6. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    I've faced the bg more than 3 times, lost only against Kokon, shrine rush helped me, indeed as @davre stated the bg playstyle is getting more accurate ( not single target but double most of the time)...the stalling with deep snow equipment helps the bg to do not reach easily Shrine or fonts, and even if they are below on fonts the impeding terrain make.

    update, davre joined the bs bg, lost even if I think i've played well ( the barricades didn't lasted so long for a double dreamcrusher deploy without a mason spire champion out, but still killed 2 of my champ in one turn , one was at 8 hp)
  7. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Yeah I'm testing the deck out. I disagree with Sok's & Super's assessment that the deck's power runs through mason's spire on lodestone. My deck doesn't even have lodestone in it. Just some relic synergy and some frost synergy. Very small sample size but 3-0 so far. I'll do 40 games like I did with skeletons.
  8. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    It is very poorly designed that the aura and terrain never goes away. I also disagree with every st unit getting +1 damage on snow for no cost.

    I faced this deck, I was using some sort of experimental deck and lost. But some of it really was horrible, and almost all of it was not fun. It did seem not very strong in all honesty (aside from a few things) and st meta is probably stronger. Very unfun to play against.
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I don't think the power is in Lodestone Builder, the deck ran perfectly fine before that rune existed. I just mean that the new addition he brings has made the deck much easier to run and also harder to advance against even if the player messes up. It basically reduces the skill burden of the deck somewhat, IMO, while also making it less susceptible to Demolish and other such things.

    The power has always been in the ability to one shot or cripple champions so that they will be easy pickings afterwards anyway, while at the same time generating a long-term advantage in terms of the way it leaves behind impeding snow and tons of HP on the board and giving the opponent very little response options other than killing the stupid barricades.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    In other words, if it's broken without the new toys, then it's been that way for a long time, but it's certainly true that some recent changes have helped the deck:
    • Demolish added to the Barricades
    • I personally like Holy Light and Frostfall Heritage in the deck giving more versatility not sure if anyone else runs these
    • Lodestone Builder got added
    • Overall champion based DMG output has decreased across the game while the DMG output of this combo has remained constant
    Some changes also nerfed the deck a bit (or at least the version I played):
    • Absorb Relic got nerfed (this was my main source of ranged offense in the deck when I played it)
    • Snowburst and Barricade both cost more than they originally did
    • Demolish got buffed (looong time ago, but still relevant)
    • Erode got buffed (more recent than Demolish)
    • Vuln: Frost nerf which hurt Frost Amulet
    Some changes coming down the pipe will affect the deck in some sense:
    • Relic HP realignment
    • Mason's Spire change
    • Overload adjustments
    • Ice Shard nerf (I personally don't run Ice Shard in this deck, but it's a reasonable include)
    None of these things will really touch the real core of the deck in any meaningful way, so I'd be interested in hearing additional thoughts you might have later, @davre.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  11. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    The initial AoE 9 of impending 1 snow is a huge deal. If am caught with mostly melee units it can take multiple turns to set up one barricade kill. Barricades themselves can be difficult to target for an attack. If the Barricades have a form of short lived, it would still allow for a strong offense turn fallowed by board control for "x" number of short lived turns.

    Edit- I think the mason spire ability is cool, I would rather see a short lived deal on barricade then have mason spire changed. (On a champ or relic)
  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    It's true, the snow is certainly a big part of things. Even if you are just breaking even on nora via the actual combo vs kills, the remaining relics and snow gives you a long-term advantage.

    That said, Skywings regularly wrecks this deck because everything flies and there's AEs everywhere :(
  13. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    Perhaps Snowburst grants short lived to all relics, +5 nora to cost?
    Edit, it would keep all the original abilities. Would make Snowburst so annoying.
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    All that is changing on Spire is AE is being consolidated to 8 always, with Rank 1 being 5 Hp and Rank 2 being 10 HP. Right now both ranks give 10 HP at different AEs, which bothers me :D
    Woffleet, Etherielin and OriginalG1 like this.
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    There are a few vectors to play with in regards to the deck when it comes to potentially adjusting it:
    1. Cost of the main combo of Barricade spell and Snowburst spell from which the deck derives its name
    2. The base damage output of the Snowburst spell (reducing the Aura rank, for example)
    3. The snow generation of Snowburst
    4. The efficiency of the Barricade spell (such as by adding the HP loss ability Target Dummy has to Barricades)
    5. Ancillary synergy stuff that helps the deck such as Mason's Spire or Frost Amp
    Of these, 1 and 2 are the ones that will impact the damage efficiency of the combo itself, while 3 and 4 impacts the long-term advantage generated, and 5 keeps the core the same while trimming the fat, so to speak.
  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    How about making snowburst not last indefinetly?
    OriginalG1 likes this.
  17. Elric

    Elric I need me some PIE!

    Just encountered davre's use of this hated deck.

    Wow, just wow, what a great way to chase away players!

    It's absolutely ZERO fun to play against. Just no strategy, except to stall until you get the nora and runes available. Then, bam, you basically can Barricade and Snowburst all your enemy's champs.

    Just sad that this isn't just plain banned from the game.
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  18. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    I did pretty well against @davre 's deck using squishy KF. Naturalize, the spell, was absolutely essential for countering the deck. I won against him twice and perhaps could have won a third game if my Avatar didn't get wedged in by, you guessed it, Barricade. If I didn't transfigure I probably, maybe, sort of, could have gone 3-0 against the deck?

    Then again, if Mason's Spire were in play, Naturalize would have failed. o_O

    Edit: From my "getting back into Pox but not quite there" perspective. The snow was the most annoying feature of the spell.
    OriginalG1 likes this.
  19. Elric

    Elric I need me some PIE!

    So, are you saying that you were able to beat him a couple of times because you put a counter (Naturalize) in your deck that was specifically targeted at him? Just curious.
  20. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    trip report:

    19 games -> 13 wins, 6 losses. One of the losses was a game crash/disconnect vs lightsmith (one of the other bursticade players) on a turn where I was about to take out 3 champs with the combo and was already ahead.
    The crash wouldn't let me get back into the game and after a full reboot of my comp I had timed out. Very disappointing.

    The other 5 times, I was vsing rush decks where I never drew/had nora for the full 120n combo. 2 of those losses were vs xirone who was packing Naturalize, as he mentioned. If more than one person ran it, I would consider adding in the lodestone for the extra hp, but I'm not going to do it for one player. I haven't even been mathing properly or planning out my game in other ways, and still leave champs alive due to laziness. It seems extremely powerful so far.

Share This Page