Pox Nora 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by zenadel, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    Guys I think it's good time for brainstorm of what it should be or whether it should be or not.
  2. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    as my previous question but stated here in a more appropriate spot.

    what would you change to improve pox. let's pretend scrooge mc duck just bought pox, and wanted to improve on it any and every way we ever wanted, how would that be.

    as stated my vote would be for side boards.
  3. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    So how it could be I wonder? Players swap something like 3 runes eachother in pre-combat action? I think not bad idea but how about that you have then
    not full faction BG.
  4. Phynixe

    Phynixe I need me some PIE!

    4 Runes on the side would be more appropriate. That way, you could tech against certain decks. I'd also like a "Best of 3" Queue. I think that would be a very interesting concept to fiddle around with.

    So, a list of things I would change is:

    1. Definitely some balance checking to keep the meta fresh and full of variety.

    2. The timer should scale as the game progresses; such that for each round, the timer goes up by +X time to a certain cap.

    3. New maps, customized map variations; meaning that certain maps should have their fonts changed, etc. every certain point in time to keep the maps fresh.

    4. New/Updated/Adjusted Faction bonuses, making them more relevant, but not a determining factor.

    5. Make more runes viable (if at all possible), have certain runes competing with others equally for a spot in decks.

    6. Delete IS so @Axeraiser and @Markoth have nothing to play, so they'll quit Pox 2.0. Make a Copperfoot Weakhold instead.

    7. More Developers and Community interaction, and transparency. DOG did a good job with transparency and communication, but sometimes went about their own route and didn't take too many of our ideas. I might be wrong, but that's subjective.
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  5. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    my concept of a side board has always been something to the effect of a 5-8 rune side board, once you see your opponent and shrine you have 1 minute and 30 seconds to eliminate runes from your bg, to include runes from your side board.

    the exact balancing of it is hard to say, it could be as few as 2 runes allowed to be swapped or as many as the full 8, ultimately it would give decks ways to answer hard counters or include situational runes that are only viable in 1 or 2 match ups, like wise the opponent may bring answer to those answers.

    I love the mind games that come with side boards, and the fact that they reward thorough under standing of the current play environment, but more then anything gimmick bg's are a bit easier to allow in the meta, when players can viably bring hard answers to the gimmick without effecting their BG against normal decks.

    a best of 3 format is honestly a favorite of mine as well in competitive environments like a tournament setting, the inclusion of it would be appreciated but I'd prefer to see it restricted to an actual tournament setting, which would mean bringing tournaments back, but a side board would be most beneficial in this setting, where in regular play a side board would largely be guess work and a result of scouting, i.e tiny is playing elves all the time and now i'm up against tiny with kf, I should probably side against his elves, or maybe just KF in general if he has multiple KF bg's.

    end of the day the exactly implementation is open to discussion, but I'd of hated hiyashi's spirit deck far FAR less if I could of been siding in anti incorpreal cards to deal with it.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  6. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    CW is OP
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  7. Fentum

    Fentum I need me some PIE!

    Stay with the existing game methodology.
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  8. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    Oh so you think about something like sub-deck with 5-8 cards for swiching 2 of them? I thought about 3 cards from main deck swiching with other player.
    I misunderstand idea. So with this second board I think it could be nice idea. I see it that way: main deck is 24 and sub 6. At the start of every turn
    players can swap 1 rune. Swithed runes from main deck going on cooldown. So we have old 30 card deck that is split and players can use it in different ways.
    Of course now if main deck have 24 cards then starting pool of card need to have less than 9 cards (7?). Now we have less random and player have more ways
    for adapt to enemy tactic.
    So adding time for later? I like that. Even more: the more time you save at end of game the more you get (points for ranking, gold or whatever).
    I'm thinking more about no faction bonuses at all, but just different fonts and focus in field mechanics (more integration with LAVA, SHADOW etc.)
  9. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    i dunno how the coding actually shakes out, but my suspicion is that a reboot of pox would require some drastic alterations or re-doing of everything the game is based on. the core code has been blamed for so many things going wrong in the game at this point that it's hard to think of a more drastic change
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  10. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    Fully agree. That is why I have lots of more hope in totally new project than just to revive the old one. Still some game systems like movement, or fields like LAVA, knock backing units, chasms
    and lots of more are so unique and fun to play that should stay alive. We need to think what is
    necessary in new game and what is not. If you want Pox Nora 2 than you need to make it "core".
    Movement system, attack system, skills/stats and more. Only players can speak that loud and clear than developers can say what can be done (if there are some here :D).
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  11. Capitulator

    Capitulator I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, but having the benefit of hindsight - seeing the current state of the game - there is a real chance of being able to do the core of it properly now.
    zenadel likes this.
  12. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    I see several ways:

    1. Have deep pockets/balls of steel to purchase/ignore a popular franchise license.

    2. Try to milk the last drops from the current outdated model by somehow minmaxing a perfect enter curve and updates quality against your profit.

    3. Redo the firking thing completely. It may not be popular opinion here, but control precision has to be sacrificed in favor of scalability. If you switch to simultaneous turns with ai directives instead of direct control, it lets you have battles with any player/unit count, possible midbattle joins/retreats, actually playable pve, persistent strategic level, etc. It would also make the game more social and marketable.
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  13. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    Personally I like economic model from World of... series with tiers, trees in game currency and premium stuff. And still free players can have lots of fun there.
    But you can't do tree for 2000+ units can you? Maybe less units and more customize. That is why I want to see just 4 factions. Card rarity could swap
    for tiers (COMMON-TIER1, UNCOMMON-TIER2 ect.). There could be tier ranking even.
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    So when thinking about what to do with a "sequel" we first have to define what it is. Typically, people talk about PoxNora 2 means one of the following:
    • UPGRADE: PoxNora as it currently exists gets a substantial facelift/upgrade, runes/accounts are kept as is
    • DIRECT SEQUEL: PoxNora 2 is a brand new game, that largely just improves on the first but doesn't fundamentally change anything
    • SPIN OFF: PoxNora 2 utilizes the game's existing lore and generally conceptual framework as a strategy/tactics game, but the new game has fundamental changes
    First, the UPGRADE option is basically a larger scale of what HAS happened to Pox already under SOE and now under DOG. It wasn't marketed as such in either case, but that's about as close to this as you will get.

    The DIRECT SEQUEL option is probably what most people are thinking of. PoxNora 2 would basically be the same game, but with a new backend/framework, everything recoded so we have less bugs, etc. The primary issue with this is that it'll likely not be anymore popular. You might think, "If there are less bugs and we have better X or Y, it'll be great!" but the reality is that it is usually very hard to change how a game will perform without FUNDAMENTAL changes. Yes, a better NUX/Tutorial, for example, will retain more players, etc. and that's not nothing, but if the game is the same you aren't changing the widest end of the funnel - all other changes, balance, etc. are all affecting things farther down the line. This is why when Blizzard makes Hearthstone or WOW, they aren't just making the same game as other people - they change it fundamentally on various levels to make it more appealing to more people. Of course, if your goal is to keep what makes PoxNora awesome and appealing then there's nothing wrong with keeping it more niche, but if you are hoping that via polish it'll suddenly became way more popular... that's much less likely. That said, you never know, being at the right place at the right time also counts for a lot and maybe the gaming community is ready for something more complex after Hearthstone showed people how fun card games can be and you don't have to just play FPS and sports games.

    SPIN OFF is the most likely scenario for something that will actually change the fortunes of the IP. As @LoganMkv suggests, one option would be to keep the deckbuilding side of things and push for a more autonomous combat system instead. Clash Royale is the most popular example of this kind of variant.

    Another option is to push the tactical side of things at the expense of deckbuilding - an example of this would be Atlas Reactor.

    One variant that I was thinking about was one where you "draft" champions in a pre-game format much like MOBAs such as League of Legends, then combat plays out like Final Fantasy Tactics with the drafted champions. Spells, etc. could be stuff you can equip on the champions (with restrictions). So you get the "mind games" by being able to respond to your opponent's "deckbuilding choices" the same way a sideboard allows, but you don't have to build decks before playing and can just jump right in.

    Of course, most of these ideas make it "not Pox" so for some they are not real options.


    Fundamentally, the question for any design team is "what kind of game do you want to make" and "who are you making it for?" From there you can determine what kind of market there actually is for such a game and what kind of sacrifices/trade off do you need to make to it viable to produce.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
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  15. MrCharles

    MrCharles The King of Potatoes

    One variant that I was thinking about was one where you "draft" champions in a pre-game format much like MOBAs such as League of Legends, then combat plays out like Final Fantasy Tactics with the drafted champions. Spells, etc. could be stuff you can equip on the champions (with restrictions). So you get the "mind games" by being able to respond to your opponent's "deckbuilding choices" the same way a sideboard allows, but you don't have to build decks before playing and can just jump right in.

    Agreed, that this would be Notpox but I'd play this game. Show me where to startkick.
    zenadel likes this.
  16. DrSteve

    DrSteve I need me some PIE!

    The direct sequel option is the only thing that would be even remotely appealing to me. There's a reason this is the only strategy game I've ever had interest in beyond a few months playing. The deck-building aspect of this game is so integral to what makes it great. It gives the opportunity for players like me to beat much better players by coming up with unique and unexpected strategies.

    Just a little anecdote that demonstrates why I love Pox so much: I was playing a game on Shores of Maljara against Tinydragon a number of years ago. I had never beaten him before. I was playing an SL/UD combo fire deck with Akakios/Priest of Fury/Imp Familiar/UD doomy that attempts to wipe the board all in one turn. Nobody else was playing this deck at the time, and Tiny was playing FF KF fae/spellspam mix, which was one of, if not the best decks at the time. After ~45 minutes, I pulled off the combo, killed ~75% of his champs in one turn, and eventually went on to win the game. I was able to beat a player that would realistically beat me 95 out of 100 games if we were both playing normal meta decks. I did it with a goofy, unoptimized, janky abomination of a BG because it afforded me an element of unpredictability that he didn't account for. And most importantly, it truly felt like I earned it. There's no RNG highrolling, no mana screwing/flooding, just what you and your opponent bring to the table and then it's mostly skill and strategy from there (except when you would go 2nd on KF Hill haHAA).

    That game gave me such a supremely satisfying sense of accomplishment that I've never felt from any other game in the genre. Spikes are supposed to stomp Johnnys, that's how all other strategy games work. This game allowed us Johnnys to get our licks in too, and I love it for that.

    Nostalgic musings aside, you're obviously correct in saying that the direct sequel route is not conducive to having the largest playerbase. However, I would also say that while I'm no expert, the market seems heavily over-saturated with high-accessibility, low-depth strategy games that have tried to capitalize the visibility boost the strategy genre has received from HS. I can rattle off 10+ games I've played in the last few years and never stuck around for more than a couple months because it was so uninteresting compared to Pox (ES:Legends, EternalCG, Faeria, Bannerlord, MTGA, etc...). What you currently have is completely unreplicated in the market, with a fan-base that is rabidly loyal, almost to a fault. With improvements to accessibility, the monetization scheme, client, etc. I genuinely believe that there would be a greater chance for Pox 2 to thrive if it were faithful to the original, because it has already carved out its niche as the extremely high skill ceiling strategy game.

    All that said I'm hella biased and I'm probably just being a quixotic fanboy. I just love pox and I want it to come back. Miss u bby.
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  17. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    Really we can have faith that peaple want to play in these kind of games because they already play in Duelyst. Direct sequel is good choice because
    Pox Nora have unique combat and deckbuilding systems that not a single game have and this is huge adventage. All game systems are ready to adapt.
    I heard that @Capitulator already code new game and so much wish luck with this. Only there is need of good economic and advertising models and that must cost.
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Duelyst would be considered a more accessible spinoff. But of course it's all a spectrum.

    Personally, I think both the space Pox currently occupies, and the space of pure PvP Tactical experience with the variety of characters are both largely unfilled, as almost all of these games lean more towards deckbuilding and less on the tactical end. With stuff like Duelyst and Faeria, while there is a board, the choices you can make once the creatures are on the board are fairly limited and to a large extent I think the interest of Pox lies in the greater depth of tactical choices you can make and not necessarily the deckbuilding aspect which is present in all the games you listed.

    But yea, I don't disagree that Pox 2 as a direct sequel could probably work well enough especially since it's likely the market has been expanded by games like Hearthstone, as long as you kept the scope down. And people like to poo poo on Pox like it's a failed product, but it's been running for about 10 years and made millions of dollars and made some people rich, which is better than the vast majority of games out there.

    Either way, my point was largely that it's a decision to be made, and a direct sequel does run the risk of following a very similar trajectory - which may very well be fine if it gives us an awesome game for 5 to 10 years.
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    If I were designing a "DIRECT SEQUEL" and trying to keep the core gameplay similar, I'd still probably want to make some changes along these lines (this is gameplay stuff, of course, we all know stuff like the combat log needs work, etc.):
    • Change to you go I go or initiative based system to reduce downtime between player actions
    • Reduce deck sizes somewhat and focus design on thematic/iconic runes/champions and reduce "filler" type runes, making each rune slot matter more
      • The large rune dock size is interesting for some players, but was largely increased primarily to sell more runes
      • Having so many rune slots also means that you end up throwing in a lot of stuff and theoretically can answer everything
      • Having fewer slots and more significant variations between runes will mean more interesting deck building choices: You should be choosing between Mena and De'lim and not "which 8 of these 16 treefolk do I want to include?"
      • If you choose certain combos/strengths you should be giving some other answers, etc.
      • Of course, this idea kind of fundamentally means the current business model likely doesn't work
    • Reduce map sizes and make other adjustments to help speed up gameplay
      • For example, escalate nora generation as time goes on and force a game end condition
        • The lack of resource escalation (beyond capturing fonts) is actually one of the issues with Pox games stalling out relative to other card games
        • It also leads to snowballing more so than systems where resource escalation exists
        • The resource system being faction agnostic is also a potential issue for scalability and long-term design space, though could be solved just by eliminating splits
    • Consider splitting off AP so that it is not used for both movement and abilities
    Not all of this would necessarily make sense all at once, but it's the kind of stuff I would consider.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
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  20. poxrooster

    poxrooster The Pox Chameleon

    So your an expert in Unity. Can you start drafting up a game?

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