Mobilizaton Inquiry

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Jul 27, 2014.

  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Testing out the waters here as I know this is an iconic and powerful FW spell so I thought I'd get some targeted feedback.

    Global AP gain is one of the most powerful effects in the game and I'd like this spell to be addressed in a way that is both flavorful, powerful, but fair. I also don't want to get into the same predicament that SL is currently in where it's power turn spells slowly gain nora and lose impact.

    The following ideas I have seen so far mentioned by forum goers:

    1) Make the spell a 1 only.
    This prevents just multi mobi turns but this may still result in a cost increase down the line

    2) No other spells may be cast this turn by you.
    Ala the SL crowd

    3) 60 nora 4 ap.

    4) 3 ap 45 nora
    if this is too cheap then 10 disease damage to affected units.

    4) Gain 2 ap and a combination of either 2 ap at end of turn, accrue, or ready/pace.
    You run the risk of making this basically a march of the skeez clone for 40 nora but it is possible to go this way.

    5) All friendly and Enemy champions gain 2 ap. Cost to 35.
    The extra savings can be mitigated by punishing the normally right way to play by saving 4 ap on your champs but it also offers synergy with bg building by adding punish and rebuke champs or possession effects.

    6) Reset the attack chain on all champions. 35 nora?

    7) all Friendly champions regain 1 ap and gain Tempo for 3 turns. 25 nora

    8) All champions gain 4 ap and are pacified until end of turn 40/45 nora (ala that ST spell that gives fliers 4 ap for 35 nora and passive)

    9) AOE3 champions gain 4 ap (undead only? I would hate to leave others out). 50-undead only/55-general nora based on alacrity levels

    10) All Friendly champions gain 4 ap. If they are not undead for 4 turns they are lumbering and distracted. (55 nora)

    11) 55 nora. All friendly champions gain 4 ap and lose 10 life.

    12) ...additional suggestions?

    I was initially leaning more towards#5 as it is flavorful and allows more interesting bg building.
    BallBaller and a few others have noted that this interaction with Rebuke would be too problematic even at 35 nora 2ap.

    I am now leaning more towards either 45 nora 3ap (with maybe a slight drawback like 10 disease damage) or 55 nora 4ap and 10 loss of life.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
  2. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Cant do that last one because of a split with IS for rebuke. Get like 4 rebuke champs down, double mobi and game over for the price of 70 nora
  3. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    35 nora, all friendly champs have their attack chain reset. not great in 1v1, progressively stronger the more champs you have on the board. gives your 6 spd'ers the attack power of 8 spders for a turn. note this doesn't let you use special attacks twice as it doesn't affect cooldowns. cant be abused with dark rising on the same turn. does let you do double mobi, but that will only benefit if you have the 3 ap for that extra attack, which will be rare.

    I would say instead of letting you close the gap and attack, it punishes those who charge into you. will probably help champs with berserker and ranged units more than melee.

    35 might seem cheap but it isn't granting a 2nd attack, just making it 2ap cheaper. there may be some split deck abuse with triple attack, I cant say. perhaps a 'all friendly undead champs..'? though I hate leaving the non undeads in FW out to dry.
  4. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    what about 3 ap for the price you find reasonable? I am against things that add clases and such, and pricing correctly a powerful spell can lead to shoebox (not implying that 4 ap for 60 nora would do it), so I think that toning down his effect a little might be the best thing.
    Mobi will still be mobi, just that a bit less powerful.
    Sirius likes this.
  5. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    When you spot that 3rd rebuke champ come down I'd hope you start expecting that setup.
    This is why I was thinking about pricing it at 35 more so for the cool down then 30.

    Hmm... I'd hazzard a guess that 3 ap would be 45 nora round abouts? Skeez march is 2 ap + 2 ap over the corse of the next 2 turns and racially limited so It would probably be a little more expensive.

    I do like the idea of resetting the attack chain but the flavor seems off for the spell.
  6. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    How about when mobi is cast All friendly champions recover 4 AP and are Immobile for 1 or 2 turns
  7. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    anything that doesn't add ap is going to feel 'off' for mobi's flavor. and anything that adds ap will be a problem one way or another, sooner or later. either shoebox, or split abuse, or OP. you cant price it properly because its effect scales exponentially with the number of champs on the board.

    I dunno, maybe only work on real champs? real undead champs?
  8. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    that would still be blatantly ridiculous for a 35 nora spell. how the hell would you avoid it? they hold back back back and keep retreating, and then just move all their champs forward 10-11 spaces and double cast it. game over
  9. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    what would you suggest then Ballballer?
  10. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Not making the spell that option?
  11. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    @ Ballballer
    your opinion has been noted ^_^
    Ballballer likes this.
  12. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    If they insist on nerfing mobi, which I will rage endlessly about, just make it 60 nora. Any other major change will make it shoebox like the rest of FW's tampered-with jewels.
  13. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    My preference, which I would like to see applied to DB and Quickening too, would be to separate nora cost and cooldown. Give the spells a longer cooldown, but keep the nora cost at something that is usable. I feel like DB is too expensive for the benefit, but the cooldown is good. Quickening I feel is good where it is, but the cooldown is too short. Mobilization I feel is in the same boat as Quickening.

    I don't see this fix being an option as I think it would take a fair amount of code rewrite to separate the cooldown from the nora cost.

    If the separation isn't an option, I'd like to see Mobilization changed to prevent attacks after casting, make it truly a mobility spell, maybe even granting Mobility in addition to the AP. Then create another spell that resets the attack chain like suggested earlier.
  14. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    separating cooldown from cost requires too much code rewrite but turning off attacks after cast doesn't?

    but I see where youre going. mobilization should equal movement, but movement is only affected by granting ap, but ap can be used for attacking. dilemma. you could try something like, adds teleport to all friendly champs this turn, but that just doesn't feel right either.

    the bigger fix would be to have 2 separate resources, one for movement, one for actions. Or to break a champs ap up into 2 parts, he can use half of it to move, then the other half for an action, or use it all for two movements. but once he does an action his turn is over. ive seen a system like this in other tbs games. but that kind of change is probably beyond the scope of this revamp.
  15. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    How about 55 nora 4 ap but relegate it to AOE3?
  16. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    That would basically be alacrity, but its your call
  17. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    I think that cooldown is currently hard coded with nora cost, and that the FW bonus is just an added check when calculating champ cooldown. I suppose spells could be given something like a cooldown factor that would be multiplied on the base cooldown, the same way as the FW bonus is added into the cooldown calculation. That would be a lot less code change than to look for a separate cooldown.

    Your suggestion about separating actions reminds me of D&D's action and move equivalent action, or Xcom Enemy Unknown where you can move, then attack, but once attacking that unit is done, unless a specific ability is on that unit.
  18. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    yeah I guess. something tells me it wont feel any different to the opposing player though. he's still going to have his key champ one rounded that turn.
  19. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Lets be clear, that is still a pretty sizable nerf
  20. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    I am in favor of having it give only 3 global AP for whatever the correct price is.
    And about the correct price, there are 2 things I wanna mention:
    1) I think it should pe priced high enough that spells such as Cancel Magic can...cancel it.
    2) I've read in this thread that it's impossible to price it correctly due to how it scales with the number of champions you have out. The thing is, I find it hard to have more than 4-5 champions out at once in a game with the way I play. Some may have a bit more, some a bit less. My point is that a maximum number exists for most games where the players actually interact, instead of both passively building up champions. So what this means is that Mobilization would give a big edge to one player in a game that starts out very passively. And in the other games, it would reach a somewhat predictable peak power and not go above that. Now, this doesn't mean it's not hard to balance, just that I think it can be done.

    Also, a possible alternative would be to have Mobi give your champions 3 AP and on the opponent's turn, give his champs 2 AP. Stackable. It allows for a bit of counterplay/swing back of things. The Rebuke aspect is worrisome though...and on that note, Rebuke looks a bit undercosted to me. Especially the rank 3 one (which shouldn't even exist imo).

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