Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by TeaScholar, Oct 14, 2014.
Vengeful would be a nice addition.
yes Ravenwaith would be nice but how about Mute Stalker with prep he can reach 5 spaces as well as gaining 4 attack, ZA to help spawn while other zombies are on deck, and Still Life to keep him hidden - slap Vendetta and leave him to reap the bennies.
Full Cheap setups usually eschew any sort of closer to finish the game. For more details, there is another thread on Modern Cheap Meat, but in short, a deck that is sufficiently efficient needs no further way to capitalize on its efficiency, and expensive champs just give your opponent something to kill. But yeah, agree with you on the lumbering bit, I'm always spooked as hell to run a lot of lumbering champs, speed is scarce as is.
That's actually a pretty nifty option. An awkward rune to be sure without Tome, but theoretically he could turn into a shrine healer in the later game, and be a bum-rusher early on, as you say. I'll give him a whirl!
Not to make this a zombie build but Wandering Zombie might be a good add - with res phys 3, 2 def, 11 dam and 2nd form he is a fonts best friend
With you there. Most of the durable, inexpensive champs are actually zombies, and Apocalypse goes off unintentionally quite often. At this point, he is probably the single most efficient damage soak in the game - perhaps even without the second form. He can now even come with Rabid.
The idea is that everything is cheap,efficient and expendable,its about grinding down enemy with sheer efficiency and by almost always outnumbering the enemy champions(i often have twice as many champions on board as my opponent).Expensive champions will just get focused,if there is no key champion for enemy to focus on,he is forced into the meatgrind with my champions and i will always have more hp/ap.In mid game i will always throw cheap meat at unprotected fonts forcing my opponent to deploy or atleast spend ap/nora stopping me.While my champions might be slow he will need to spend a lot ap to deal with them all.
The early game is the most difficult part of playing this build.I did manage few time to secure mid font with blood fiends and then just drop some meat and practically win.Also i will sometimes pass on mid font duo to lack to speed,but one round of not contesting the font is not that relevant when everything is just so efficient in this build,and several times my opponent took the mid,deployed a expensive champion in my face and then i just onerounded him with 3-4 cheap champs that were slowly lumbering towards mid.Most of the tactics i use are explained really well in the fw mentality thread and in modern cheap meat thread under core concepts.
Honestly, I've never liked the Wandering Zombie. His second form is entirely unreliable, and though he's efficient enough in his first form, the opponent can realistically ignore the second for quite a long time until it's in position to do something. Zombie Behemoth is superior IMO; worse combat ability, but his massive HP pool and access to Exertion makes him a safer pick overall.
Yeah, that has honestly been my concern, not so much that the second form does nothing, but that it doing nothing stops the zombie from going on cooldown. But even so, a first form of 45 health, 2 defense, resist: phys 3, and some good damage output for a meager 53 beats the tar out of a lot of other options. You get that all over again, but it is admittedly unreliable. Part of making that second form usable is running him to where he will be a problem even in his second form, if you can get there, but you are quite right that it can actually screw him over against a competent player. I've been messing around with running a singleton Throw Bones, actually, for a couple reasons, but it has the added benefit of cleaning up Wandering Zombies. Results still unclear in competitive games, but a synergy to consider.
And actually, I am 100% with you on Zombie Behemoth. Even with the gutted damage output, losing Lichbound and having a small child's worth of health stapled on made him a much more attractive option. His 2x2 and lethargic nature can clog up a front line, for better or for worse, but he is still a great wall to have around. In my mind at least, he doesn't vie for a spot with Wandering Zombie because they are both more efficient than most other champs at that range. I run two of both.
If, however, someone was looking for a replacement for Wandering Zombie and was already running Behemoths, what would your suggestions be? Any other goodies that fill a similar role?
Fleshblight zombie is very durable and can do good damage if he gets in range.He can be run at 54 nora with 66hp,9 damage and rabid 1 and black death,manic can help compensate for lumbering and give extra attack but on certain maps and in certain situation manic can be very problematic to manage.
What do people think of Revenant and Death Guard?
Cheapest meat anywhere, cooldown of 2, but they are both 5 speed and only get two turns to act (3 if Revenant gets Initiative)
Stitchling looks cool, too.
You hit the nail on the head with the concerns about the champs. Unlike Skeletal Berserker, they don't demand much attention as threats, and are unlikely to get much into fighting prior to detonation. The do make for good font defense or rush protection, but FW is flush in that. For the most part, they can be safely ignored by an opponent.
Stitchling is a good idea. No experience using it, but a tiny, rabid, evasive dork sounds promising.
Stichling is has a surprising amount of toughness and power, but leaving behind Stitched Remains is a problem when you can't do anything with them. Handing your opponent a 10 nora globe from your 39 nora champion seems to defeat the purpose.
A Stitched module could work, but the only champ under 70 nora that can utilize remains is the Seamstress. She's a solid source of healing and AoE in a BG with a lot of cheap units dying, though.
I like reverant and have them in the soultap build but don't see it in mainstream play more like a boost to Psy damage and a quick form of Hex
Deathguard he hasn't changed much since his birth used 2 roles to protect and repurp only thing I don't like is that if he attacks he looses guarding, some of the other faction bodyguards can do both.
Lets go back a few years think of one of the original meatballs....
All for under 64 nora
back in his heyday there wasn't a build that was made without him
for giggles slap a Fleshsewn Helm on him
I run 2x deathguard so serkan can get up in their shrine and chill.
Executioner is a stellar champ. I'm actually running 2 of him as well, and that build looks good indeed. You run Fleshsewn Helm?
Yes....giving him 2 res phy as well as disease damage makes him more durable and not susceptible to fire damage as Wandering Zombie -
I think there should be more use from the equipment dock since the revamp there are more uses for the hardly used EQ arsenal as well as some of the non main stream spells
Fleshsewn helm - boosts tanks
darkmarsh staff - magic's nightmare
Dead zone voo doo - great for contesting when your champ has to leave font and engage in combat
cancel magic - Grabs the annoying spells that FS bubble thing, RD ect.....
just to name a few
It certainly makes a recipient more durable, my concern would instead be that it opens the situation up to vulnerabilities and inefficiencies.
Any testing experience with those other things on the list?
Anything that increases the staying power of your champ increases their efficiency The Helm, at 30 nora, will increase you resistance to physical damage as well as adding Disease damage that isn't on your attack chain
The Staff speaks for its self but in thinking about it wouldn't be useful in a cheap meat build unless its on a champ with Vengeance -
DZVD great spell knocks non-iron will champs back 2 spaces so they cant place a relic - also its a set and forget spell, as Cancel Magic, its hidden till triggered
Would disagree with the idea that anything that improves staying power improves efficiency. The Helm costs a whopping 30 nora, nonrefundable, and a rune slot. It does not have its cost mitigated by a potential globe or Death Harvester. Compare the potential damage output and damage absorption of a Fleshsewn Helm to an other Executioner. Unless the helm is expected to produce more than 30 effective HP (approx. half an Executioner, factoring banner, refunds, synergies, etc) it is more likely to reduce efficiency than it is to improve it. That is leaving aside any calculation of damage output, but consider: 2 Executioners with Fleshsewn Helms or 3 Executioners. In any situation, the versatility, damage output, and durability of the latter will likely reign superior, especially against off-damage types. And the third champ costs less to boot.
And all that besides it promoting one rounding from the position of the opponent, something that is anathema to efficiency. Using Fleshsewn Helm gives an opponent an action to capitalize on; they may take advantage of anti-equip to blast through the 30 nora investment, or direct their combative attention to the Executioner with non-physical or non-combat damage sources (the barest of optimization problems on their part) and ignore the Helm's presence entirely.
Ultimately, I think there are some solid arguments to make for Fleshsewn Helm, but efficiency is not one of them. I'll have to give DZVD a whirl and see how it works as a momentum tool. Is Cancel Magic an SL spell?
Oops I meant Absorb Magic.....
Stopping a opponent from obtaining nora is just as important as gaining nora - putting a 30 nora helm on a 62 or less champ that will be able to hold/contest a font for at least 2 turns and cause surmountable damage is worth the price
as for the anti eq or combined attention to the champ saves the lives of all other - as with Wandering Zombie it will take about 5 attacks of 14 or better damage to bring these champs down as it stands with the helm using just about all the resources the opponent can muster leaving your other champs free to engage a hopefully nora/hp depleted opponent
Separate names with a comma.