Let's Look at Liches

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by TeaScholar, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    How about this for Serkan (he's my favorite champion of all time):
    Boost Morale: "all lich champions under your control gain +1 dmg, +1 def, and +5 hp as long as this champion is in play, and all non lich champions under your control gain warcry 2 for 6 turns when this champion is deployed."
  2. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    Global warcry will definitely improve his viabillity. Nothing bad about +3 ap on attack for every one of your units.
  3. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Figured go big then let other people give positive input. Having more than one head involved is key to a well thought out ability.
  4. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    How about all other non lich champions gain vivify
  5. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Serkan is in terrible straights...
    Most notably the nerfs to Cripple and Weary.
    Weary lasts 10 turns and then resets (it doesn't re-apply if hit again).
    Cripple now lasts 4 turns meaning this will give -1 def then -2 def before resetting.
    When compared to sunder serkan cries salty tears.

    Basically he needs a rework.
    BroWatchThis likes this.
  6. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Cripple, weary, and debilitate need to renew when hit again. That would be a huge improvement.
    BroWatchThis likes this.
  7. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Idea: Why not just make Serkan's touch a passive ability on Serkan that gives him both abilities cripple and weary at a discounted price?

    Edit: Also, give Lich Servitor his ranged attack back. Magic attack, or just give him throw axe. PLEASE.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  8. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Serkan could go a number of ways for a rework.

    Serkan the Debuffer
    Path 1(Debilitate, Weary, Cripple)
    Path 2(Frightful Blows, Void Touch, rotting blows)
    Base: Sentinel, Boon of the dead, Hero, Attack Electricity, Teleport 1, Evil Aura
    DMG 5, Spd 7

    Serkan the Commander
    Path 1 (Commander: Zombie, Commander: Spirit, Commander: Human)
    Path 2(Swap 3, Insubstantiate, Foment)
    Base: Boon, Hero, Attack Electricity, Teleport 1, Evil Aura, Etherial
  9. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Yobanchi..... you're scaring me. 5 Damage....... Really.
    Don't get me wrong, there are some great ideas here you're presenting to ponder upon... But where is commander skeleton?... Let me stop attacking you and just suggest a couple things. Hopefully if I keep trying it'll work.

    I "suggest" Serkan keep life siphon, for the love of Elsari. It's one thing that actually works for him, I suggest removing other things, but not every single thing he currently has.

    I suggest he doesn't REALLY need Evil Aura. You want to address sandbag abilities, you can't really go more sandbag than that ability. It's essentially your basic aura 1 on what is always going to be a long range teleporting champ. It's pretty insignificant. Most of the time he's siphoning from your own guys when he doesn't even need the hp, and I highly recommend life siphon over evil aura on Serkan any day of the week. You have to consider the fact that you might shoebox the Firk out of him if you go in too hard with the change ups. There are certainly things that need to be changed, for sure, but some runes, like Serkan.... only need some tweaks. Now there are big tweaks, and little tweaks.... You take evil aura over life siphon on this guy and my friend you will have changed the entire basis of workability on our hero, Serkan.

    He's not even really that bad at all right now. One small tweak I agree with is teleport 1, and 7 speed. He would do better that way, as it is a rare occasion that being able to teleport an extra square will help you get a kill. Teleport 1 suffices, and 7 speed (like he had before) means more attack capability. Full support on that one.

    Since we're honestly not big fans of the whole debuff thing for this guy, we can scrap the cripple or debilitate stuff, and give him something more useful. Something cheaper too. Shielded would be great.

    I don't suggest giving him too many of these Protectorate skills. I don't see the point of Foment so you'll have to explain that one to me. Even our cheapest of champs, festering corpses and all, would not benefit much from foment. Is it not the ability that gives champs with <40 base hp a boost in hp? What champs exactly do you intend will benefit from that? Death Guard wouldn't even benefit. And even those that do, it's not that game-changing.

    Swap is cool but he's more of a "smack you and teleport away" type of champ.
    Sentinel seems costly to me, and I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice his already functional things he has going for him, to make room for such an ability. And you KNOW IS will just RD us every time we use Serkan if he has Sentinel. It was the same thing before with Lamias in pre-revamp with blindfire- I just simple do. not. suggest that.

    I agree with giving him abilities that help his defensiveness and support more, but I feel like should really leave the core support for other units to the other liches. Serkan should remain the lightning slanging Wizard that he is, with more efficient tweaks. Serkan himself should have defensive additions. I highly highly big time suggest something that protects him from spells, and all you would have to do for that is get rid of his debuff (cripple) and change it to either shielded, warding, or desecrated zone.
    Hell- I think warding would be extremely better. Cheaper for sure, plus it makes him immune to snowblind repurping him onto a death guard!

    And if you think that's not enough, once again, I'm gonna bring this up- Frightful Aura. It's not only flavorful (Serkan is frightening around mortals and allies feel ready to hold their ground for their overlord), it's another defense mechanism that holds true to our desire to make liches more supportive. Much more useful to FW than evil aura. Much more efficient at holding the pieces together. Now if you don't like this idea, we can expand on possible mobility abilities instead. Swap is one thing but there is also the Whisperghast's ability.

    The designs you put there for Serkan should be on another Lich. And there are plenty of options.

    But TL;DR - Serkan is a King, and the King can enter the battlefield and focus on being a Bad-Ass. He can trust his generals are doing their jobs- those are the other liches. Serkan doesn't even have to raise his armies anymore, they just show tf up ready to party. He has an advanced hierarchical system and the reason Xulos overcame him was because he fought back like he does- fighting on his own. Serkan is that dude who will have an army against you, and then repurpose all of his troops unto himself and just 1v1 your entire troop. And then you say "Wow, that guy didn't give a straight Firk. He consumed his allies to empower himself and defeat us. That man is evil. The anti-thesis of Man." Serkan, ladies and gentlemen.

    I'd like to think @BroWatchThis would appreciate what I'm trying to say here.
    Tweek516, BroWatchThis and yobanchi like this.
  10. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    And the only one he didn't repurpose on that day was the shadowshank.
  11. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    If I where still playing I would LOVE that version of Serkan. Ethereal should most likely be removed though. Having him unable to attack every two turns would be a big downside.
  12. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I definitely like the idea of Frightening Aura and Desecration zone on him. Hope I'm not scarying you too much ^_^ I like spitballing ideas and so far Serkan's not even on the board yet for a change but could be if people want him over a witch change.

    Life siphon 10 nora
    Life drinker 8 nora
    Logistics Life: Siphon 4 nora <- here we go

    Actually now that I'm thinking about it...would it be cool to have a logistics

    Serkan as Logistic
    Path 1 ( Defensive Strike, Frightful Aura 3, Desecration zone 3)
    Path 2 ( Portal, Teleport, Debilitate)
    Base: Attack, Hero, Boon Logistics life siphon, Logistics: Spd, Logistics: Range, Logistics: Flanking
    Stats: Dmg 10, Spd 6, Rng 4-5

    *edit for TeaScholar*
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  13. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Dude. This would be.... omg....
    If you switched Frost Cone for Frightful Aura and Weary with Warded. It would be too perfect for words. T_T so beautiful
  14. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I kinda like Desecration zone more then warding...Makes him look more badassery.

    May be interesting to swap some stuff around on him though.
  15. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Yeah. Portal is a very fun idea, though.
  16. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    As much as I'm liking this current trend of thought, I'm still pretty stuck on my idea of ol' badass Serkan just slinging undead at the enemy.

    I know we don't want to stretch the boundaries of possibility too far with new ability ideas, but how about using old ones in a new way? What would it look like if one of his paths (I don't think I'd get support for a full toolkit of summon abilities) had fling corpse on it?

    Serkan always seemed like the more practical necromancer compared to Xulos being the more creative. As in, Serkan would be more apt to beat a mother****** with another mother******.

    Either direction, I think I'd be happy with seeing. I just....man, throwing undead minions left and right just sounds so flippin' cool to me.

    'I killed your dude. Here, have some Revenant.'
    'You want to come at me, bro? Here, have some stinky' *fling corpse*
    'Hit me?! Skelton, deal with it!' *Bone Fracture*
    'Your dead are my greatest resource' *Swarm; Festering Corpse*

    All on his already mostly sexy (7spd, R.I.P.) stat line. Boon, life siphon, and teleport/portal are all I really see him neeeding to keep in order to maintain Lich Master badassery.

    But, in an effort to be more constructive than just lobbying for my own idea;

    Path 1 (Bone Fracture, Fling Corpse, Swarm: Festering Corpse)
    Path 2 (Frightful Aura, Desecrated Zone, Warding)
    Base 7spd, teleport, attack: Magical, Boon, Restless Souls

    And I really just keep pushing for the Restless Souls only because I think it could be a very potent ability if we spread it across the more powerful Liches in the faction. Magistrate already has it, but it would fit on Toll Taker, LK, Serkan, TP, and likely one or two more. (And think of all that Vendetta synergy as they pop)
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
    Woffleet and BroWatchThis like this.
  17. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    I understand where you're coming from Merc, I do.

    But let me express my opinion that logistics range + siphon + flanking would be amazing.

    It's another one of those cases where I'm saying "hey, this is a great idea, and another lich SHOULD have (restless souls). But Serkan? No."
  18. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I like both ideas though, and regardless of which one goes through, I agree that another lich down the line at least needs the other idea proposed. (Maybe Serkan's successor...hmmm)
    TeaScholar likes this.
  19. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member


    @yobanchi How expensive would serkan be with one logistics, and then how much in comparison with all 3 logistics at the same time?

    @Mercer Skye your idea, in hindsight, sounds too evil, for one. But I support that. In reality, I think it would make serkan... what, like 200 nora cost? :p idk

    @chickenpox2 come hither and read
    @D4rkSteel you too
  20. D4rkSteel

    D4rkSteel I need me some PIE!

    I agree with Tea, would be cool to see Serkan on the top of the hierarchy system and beneath that, the liches. Serkan should be in control of the liches and the liches in control of the lesser undead. But i'd like him to have some synergy with liches then too, just like xulos has synergy with skeletons and moragen with zombies (would be nice if they turn that up a notch, zombie apocalypse? zombie herder, or make it be a hero for spirits too since they have no "commander") I love the way how Lich's servitor works with Aspiring Servant, we need more of that stuff. It really defines that Serkan is the "king". But talking about abilities of Serkan.. pff, first of all, I would remove the frost cone and you guys already talked about how useless the evil aura is, it is useless but it looks cool and I think all liches should have evil aura. All liches had this before but they changed it. UNLESS IT RAISES THE NORA COST. Logistics seems pretty ok, but it's not that exciting. It does make him viable in any kind of BG. I would love to see frightful aura on this guy though, sounds like a excellent idea. on another note, Aspect of Death is the scariest motherFirker in the game (aside from aspect of oblivion). This guy NEEDS frightful aura! + make death knell a little bit cheaper, he's a little bit expensive but he's okay aside from that. Once again like I said, make moragen the hero for zombies AND spirits, they need one. I don't like the idea of Sarinda being the new hero though, but that is because she is not undead. If I come up with other ideas for Serkan I'll let you know but I have no idea at the moment. But +1 for the firghtfull aura, and make him the commander of the liches with some kind of ability

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