Kalasle's FF Tier List -- PS4 -- 8/30/17

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kalasle, Apr 4, 2015.

  1. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    If we are going to group champions by class/race and call them a theme then things are going to get really messy. I mean, I really would like to call my ST Shamans a theme, but with only 2 runes bringing them together I'm not sure that's valid. @kalasle How would you define a theme (honest question so I can have an actual definition myself)?
    Tweek516 likes this.
  2. kazekage

    kazekage The King of Potatoes

    Yeah skellies are 1.5 easy, pretty much easy mode once you know what you're doing.
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Eh, the way I would define "theme" and the way that "theme" has historically been defined within the Pox community are fairly different, so I'm not sure with which of those I should answer your question. I take "theme" literally: it is any consistent idea that runs through a deck or set of runes. Often, within the context of Pox and other competitive games, that theme may have a game-play or game-plan explicitly associated with it, but sometimes not. For instance, I would consider a deck full of Bok to be a theme deck. That does not mean that "Bok" is a theme in any ontological sense, it just means that a deck has been built which takes the Bok tag as its theme.

    As far as the Pox community has been concerned, "theme" usually means a series of runes linked by race, class, or damage type. To bring up an old example, Cheap Meat has never been considered a "theme" in the Pox community, mainly, I think, because it doesn't fall into one of those three aforementioned categories, even though Cheap Meat as a distinct idea (and, when enabled, deck) exists as much as anything else does.

    For this tier list, assume that I am using my version of what "theme" means. You can just assume that I have left off, as implicitly tier 3+, any deck organized around a theme that has no mechanical rationale, such as that Bok deck. Now, as a result of the way in which players and designers have, historically, construed "theme", the kinds of things that get mechanical support and turn into functioning themes in my eyes are often those that fall within the Poxnora race/class/type categories.

    I would agree. Hence they are left out of t1 or t2.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  4. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Yes, I do.
  5. DukeofDunks

    DukeofDunks I need me some PIE!

    I'd be interested in hearing opinions about themes that dont see much exposure

    Myx, UD spiders, Yeti's, Moga, Vampires, etc

    I dont think anyone is surprised that the decks you see every day while spectating are strong but it would be neat to see how these compare to the currently played bg's
  6. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Answers are somewhat speculative, based on older encounters with these decks and reviews of rune lineups. Very much as a result, would like other opinions on these things.

    Bad deck, probably. Should put them in tier 2. Not much range, little durability, and a cheeky relic but little else. Added.

    Burly, but with a bit of a speed problem, and light on ranged damage sources. Still, Abominable can setup pseudo-Surge on any close-by target, and they are very fat. Leaving them at t1.5.

    Also t1.5. Racial multi-attack is very good, and they can deal some great damage as a result. A lack of range mixed with their need to stay at a mid-resource environment keeps them out of t1.

    Might be t1. Not really sure. In-theme swarm and good damage options. Vulnerable to AoEs and picking apart individual champions. Need more info.

    Too reliant on beefy summons -- and therefore too vulnerable to Ritual effects -- to be t1 viable. t1.5 in lieu of that.
  7. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    @kalasle I agree with you about Yetis, but abominable has been "stealth" buffed (it's in the patch notes but no condition it's pretty wonky in game) and despite the fact even I might take a while getting making optimal use of it, it's a bonus for the same cost. Still 1.5 in the end, but Avalancher just got changed too so won't be long before nerf calls, because ST.
  8. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Liches moved to t1.

    If someone is willing to put together a Crystals list and test them, I have a suspicion they could be t1 as well.

    I've been brewing spirits, and they are close to t1 with the champ-light Surge build, but I think they have big holes against Disbelief and Dark Favor, and I can't justify something in t1 with explicit problems like that.
  9. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 I need me some PIE!

    i think st crystals are tier 1. watch Braxzee play them, he mixes in some frostwing glaves. he beat me and others i watched.

    nora gem long ago got nefed with losing fascinate i dont think that was enough. much needed at the time as you used to get pulled all over the place back and forth taking damage all the time. they nerfed distracting(sonic) luminescence too afterwards.

    nora gem is still too good when you have enough crystal champions out. its bad enough with 2 out.
  10. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    I remember vsing a decent lich player a lot a fair while back and imo they were definitely solid but the definition of t2 in my books. Perhaps the new vampire has pushed them over the edge since anything with vitality creation is instantly overpowered. I'd put crystals in that same vein as old liches those things are beasts. Unless of course they got a new toy to push them to power but I doubt it.

    So perhaps if lich are "t1" then crystals are t2 in your books.
  11. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I think the rough outline that @davre has settled on recently for liches -- light on relics, heavy on spells, lean on Dark Apprentice as the core rune, treat the phylacteries as secondary tempo and value -- leaves them at t1. For both Liches and Crystals (and Spirits and anything else, really) their positions in tier lists will be greatly affected by evolving approaches and discovered tech. Spirits, for instance, were cast out of t1, and I believe that the reasons for doing so were mostly illegitimate.
  12. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    Yup basically how that other guy played it. DA is a high priority target and adaptive on the other lich makes using spells extra efficient.

    Their main issue as with a lot of these border t1 themes is getting rushed.

    For example I have a distinct memory of vsing a spirits player and using PHS on the 62 Nora dude early in midfont to get the kill (don't think I even recovered the globe). The tempo push of them not having anything real to contest won me the game since both themes are fairly ranged heavy.
  13. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    This is pretty much why I don't consider them to be top tier anymore. They already had a hard early game before Riftlord got that fatty cost increase and now it's a lot harder for them to get set up.
  14. Fentum

    Fentum I need me some PIE!

    I read this thread and realise that after ten years playing, I still have almost no idea what I'm doing.

    DonK101st likes this.
  15. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    Man, that deck is some oldstyle goodstuff spam. Firking Kento can burn in hell, mika too.
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  16. Chris

    Chris I need me some PIE!

    I lost to stitched so stitched must be op :p
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  17. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Provisionally removing both Worms and FW junk from tier 1. I'm increasingly skeptical that either of those lists can compete against the tempo tools out there right now.
  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Is tempo the new word for imbalance / op? I'm old...

    however, I do find a general tier list of the factions to be UD ST KF## SL FS SP#### IS FW, with the first 6 being much closer in power level. Last two rely more on specific op units, which aren't..tempo enough right now.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  19. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Ironfist and fw last, interesting, sl 4th, this list is sketchy.
  20. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    Tempo is speed Comes from the musical term.

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