Interesting and Topical Documentary

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Ohmin, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I don't think you will find many that agree with you that a 2 party system means the same thing happens regardless of winner.

    I'd agree that foreign policy of the US, with few exceptions, tend to be pretty stable, but domestically it's quite a bit different.

    I also think that what you say applies more to the Presidency, but local elections matters more in terms of who actually wins and is arguably more important to people's everyday lives - but everyone focuses on the big election, often to the detriment of the other elections.

    I think that's the wrong way of looking at it, the "body count" needs to be compared to what would have happened otherwise, not to each other. In these types of things, we need to be looking at the trend lines - because absolute counts hides far too much context.

    It's why early on when people said "Swine Flu killed more people!" were pretty silly since COVID-19 reached those death counts much more quickly and ignoring time in their analysis makes very little sense.

    Last edited: May 27, 2021
  2. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    I wanted to chime in because this is interesting. What is the common denominator of most rigged election claims in the world? That they benefit the guy that's in charge. It is really hard to believe that someone other than the guy holding the power at the moment of the elections affected the outcome.
    Also, as a side note, I would like to let you know that this kind of claims are used to depose democratically elected powers more often than not, just like it happened with Bolivia recently. So don't go around believing those claims blindly. In fact, the fun part of these claims for a lot of people is that they are the first time USA uses these destabilization techniques on itself.
  3. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    Just have more parties, numbers corespond to the number of seats they got, they need 76 for a goverment. compromise and coalitions, the areas do not mean a lot just shows you what party got the most votes in the different municipalities all votes have the same weight.

    Europe Elects is pretty good if you want to learn about european elections and the different political parties. they make a few mistakes here and there though.

    you'll be too busy devising a coalition and there will be enough choice to stop whining about voters not acting like you WANT THEM TO
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
  4. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    I think only a few countries can pull of a coalition party

    Look at NZ they doing really well

    On the other hand Britain has a terrible time trying to balance the parties
  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Update on AZ's "audit":
    • They have now reached halfway done with the ballots
    • They originally said they'd be done by May 14th (it is now June 1st and they are only halfway there)
      • Each day costs taxpayers additional money to run the facility, provide security, etc.
    • OAN has been fundraising for the audit like crazy, having started their own 501(c) for it
      • There's a complete lack of transparency with regards to where the donations money are coming from, where the money is going, and who has it
    Follow the money?

    Some people are speculating that they are going to drag it out as long as possible to keep the gravy train coming, and that might be true, though I also think it's going to take them multiple times as long as they thought because THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING (which should give you pause about their "claims" for which they have no provided little proof).
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  6. L33Ch

    L33Ch I need me some PIE!

    A centralised system would aid transparency, increase efficiency, reduce costs and make it much clearer where any attack had originated.
    Considering the size of the current defense budget you could justify the initial expense as a matter of national security.

    Dominion - founded 2003 in Canada is 75% owned by Staple Street Capital a US based private equity firm that does not disclose its financials.
    A $400 mil injection from UBS would buy alot of control.

    I didn't say that, long term results will be much the same even if the paths to those results may appear to be in competition or even directly opposed,
    this is the surreptitious nature of modern politics and 2 party systems in particular.

    In my own country the last 4 democratically elected Prime Ministers have all been deposed from internal leadership spills and thus my opinion
    on the effectiveness of elections is highly sceptical.

    It may be more important to the locals everyday lives but US foreign policy effects everyone and usually in a negative way.

    I agree but was referring to policy both foreign and domestic and it's effects on all human lives.
    I should have been clearer but was winding it up due to external time limitations.

    While Biden will in the short term save lives with more proactive measures against Covid for example, as a seasoned politician his policies are more
    insidious and could well be far worse in the long run but also more difficult to fully measure.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  7. L33Ch

    L33Ch I need me some PIE!

    Not if your a dispossessed Māori left homeless from recent harsh changes to the welfare system.

    In general coalitions work well if all sides can agree on the common good but during wars or in the case of a pandemic requiring fast decisive action, time is wasted in negotiations.

    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    While I agree with you, you will have a hard time convincing many Americans of this. They dislike centralization, particularly if it involves any of their information.
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The specific claim was that Dominion is owned by a Chinese company as such:

    "Communist China” purchased Dominion Voting Systems on Oct. 8 for $400 million.

    This is false.

    What is true is that Dominion, originally founded in Canada, is currently owned by a US based private equity firm located in New York.

    Dominion has HQ in Canada (Toronto, Ontario) for its Canadian operations, and an HQ in the US (Colorado) for its American operations.

    Specifically, the claim that UBS, which bought securities (securities is stocks or other things of value basically) from Staple Street Capital, is Chinese owned, but the truth is that UBS Securities LLC is an American subsidiary of a Swiss Bank called UBS AG and is not Chinese owned. The false claim that was circulated attempt to conflate this UBS Securities LLC with its Chinese subsidiary which was not involved, but even if it were that one - it still wouldn't be Chinese owned, but Swiss owned. And of course, selling some securities to a bank does not mean that the bank suddenly runs any companies that the private equity firm owns - in fact, the securities traded were neither in Staple Street nor in Dominion Voting Systems.

    Finally, the 75% often mentioned does not refer to Dominion Voting Systems' ownership by Staple Street, but actually referred to the unproven claim that 75% of UBS Securities Co (the Chinese subsidiary that was, as mentioned, uninvolved in this whole thing) is owned by the Chinese government:

    "UBS Securities is a Swiss investment bank which owns 24.99% of UBS Securities Co LTD, a Chinese Investment Bank. The remaining 75% of UBS Securities CO LTD is owned by the Chinese government"

    This was then used to suggest that Dominion is now run by the Chinese government.

    In the lengthy video made by Lin Wood, where this information came from, Wood looked into several Chinese individuals claimed to be involved with the UBS Securities LLC's board. However, none of these people are involved with USB Securities LLC as shown in the SEC filing:

    In typical conspiracy fashion, it all sounds shady until you start asking questions and realize that most of it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.


    There was also claim that every state that the Trump campaign filed lawsuits in used Dominion Voting Systems. The idea of this is to imply that the point of the fraud is Dominion Voting Systems.

    But the truth is that they were used in 24 states, including states that Trump won - and they weren't used in some other states that Trump lost. If Trump losing in a Dominion state is enough to warrant scrutiny, then surely Trump winning in Dominion states is a valid data point to consider. And if you are concerned about Dominion, you'd want to look at every state they were used in, not only the ones where your candidate lost.

    Unless, of course, the concern is predicated on a particular narrative, in which case evidence that does not follow the narrative just gets ignored.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    While true, US foreign policy actually tends to be pretty stable as most of the "big" things are actually gated by Congress, which would be a more local election. People, in and out of the US, tend to overestimate the power the US President has.

    Even after 9/11, Congress had to pass an entirely new bill to give the President new authority to respond.
  11. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Seems like most coalition governments took more decisive action than the US - but that probably makes sense given that the current state of US politics means that whoever is not in power just plays obstruction so it's very hard for anything to get done.

    So of the 3, I guess we'd rank them in this way in terms of "decisive action capable":
    • 1 Party (China)
    • Coalition (Most Parliamentary Systems)
    • 2 Party (US)

      (This doesn't they WILL take decisive action, just that it's more possible.)
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  12. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    My point exactly I didn't know that so I guess it extremely difficult to make good government

    Tldr there's not enough good people in the world to make a good government that work for it's people
  13. L33Ch

    L33Ch I need me some PIE!

    I like the NZ PM Jacinda Ardern, the Australian government followed her lead into Covid lockdown and further proactive restrictions which saved lives ahead of economic concerns.

    I think the vast majority are good people, but tend not to get involved in politics. Recent mass protests by the young on environmental sustainability give me some hope...
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  14. L33Ch

    L33Ch I need me some PIE!

    Again thanks for the detailed response , I was quoting this from USA Today

    " CEO Jeff Poulous said in a letter to the House Committee on Administration that he owns a 12% stake of the company, while 75.2% is owned by Staple Street Capital and no other investors own more than a 5% stake."

    As to the actual ownership issue you would need to be a forensic accountant to trace the money trail.

    Staple Street Capital appears to be a hedge fund with limited reporting which only aids in these claims.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Yea, that quote is really good in supporting the idea that foreign ownership is a false claim (assuming you believe it). It's 75.2% owned by an American private equity firm. That's not foreign. No one would ever normally classify that as foreign.

    Which is why the "Dominion is run by the Chinese" thing wasn't about this, but rather then sale of securities by Staple Street Capital to an entity whose name was similar to a branch based in China of a Swiss company... but as I explained, it's all hogwash.

    And if you know anything about hedge funds, you know that the investors aren't typically running any of the companies they are invested in because no one really owns enough of a stake to have any real influence.

    In any case, any suggestion that DOMINION VOTING is foreign owned or run by the Chinese government has no legs to stand on, but it doesn't matter now, the suggestion has been put out there with no actual proof and people will continue to repeat it because it fits their narrative.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Me too. That was the way to do it. Be quick and decisive.

    And you know what? Their economy started recovering well before anyone else, and the length of time it was down/slowed was also less than most anyone else. So in that way, they may have saved their economy from what might have been an even worse situation.
  17. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    Honestly I think she the only decent leader out of the 194 nations
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Hey, they finally finished counting! Over 2 months after they said they would be done.

    They won't release a report for a month though, they said.

    Can you imagine if we did the election and you didn't have a result for 3 months? People would be questioning the process... wouldn't they? And yet the same people who use every excuse to criticize the election don't require the same level of rigor from this so-called audit? Why is that?

    By the way, I still laugh at the phrase "independent audit" to describe this whole clownshow.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
  19. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    You've probably heard of this thread already in the past couple days, but for anyone that hasn't, it's worth a read, and might help give some perspective on things:

    In the meantime...
    If anyone has an additional 5 hours and ~12 minutes to go in depth into the current state of the AZ Maricopa County Audit, here's todays AZ Senate Hearing on the matter:

    (I don't know who Shawn Rhoads is and have not looked at anything else on that may be on the channel, but this was what I found currently after a brief search. If I find a better archived source (likely one on the AZ gov. website haven't checked yet) I'll try and remember to update with a link to that).

    In the mean time, Democratic Party Legislators have fled Texas in a bid to stop election reforms in the state from being voted on, with Abbot issuing warrants for their arrest (to make them do their jobs/possibly fine them, that they swore to do, not to throw them in jail, as I understand it). Because, after all, according to this party, asking for a photo identification to verify who is voting is racist and brings us to the brink of civil war... now please provide your proof of vaccination before you go outside without a mask or fly on an airline... (curiously, said Legislators did not wear masks when on their private flight to DC, nor on the bus ride they took to the airport prior). All while campaigning for an end to the "obstructionist" tactics of "Republicans" in the US Senate utilizing the fillibuster rules already in place.

    It's a forensic audit, they take time to be thorough, and ensure that ballots are both valid and match up. But quite frankly it's clear you're much more interested in "being right" or defending your viewpoint (based not on any first hand knowledge you have but the incredulity that the media and your preferred politicians might lie to you and that it must be the people you don't like that are lying) than looking at the evidence and evaluating it with an open mind... for example, the fact that out of Fulton County, GA, it's been found that there has been a huge error rate not only in the initial count, but also perfunctory re-count that had not gone through as thorough (let alone transparent) a process as what's going on un Arizona. Of over 1500 sampled ballots that had gone through a recount, over 60% of them were recounted incorrectly, according to a watchdog group on the matter:

    It's a group employed by the legislature of Arizona, independent of the Board of Elections, Secretary of State of Arizona, Dominion, and the main company being in charge of the audit (Cyber Ninjas) is based in a different US state: Florida... That's about as independant as you can get without demanding people be brainwashed to have no political thoughts whatsoever. Besides, if you're right and nothing was wrong with the election in that county (or anywhere else, despite evidence to the contrary) than they won't find anything... and your position and those of which you're trying so desperately to defend will be bolstered (though there's still Georgia, Michigan, etc. to deal with). That would not "weaken" democracy, it would strengthen it.

    Yet the media you follow, the politicians you prefer... they are all trying to get in the way of that. All based on a spurious accusation (with even less evidence to support than anyone claiming election fraud in 2020 has produced) that something nefarious is going on even before any sort of actual conclusion/final report has been published.

    Tell me, you question the "independence" and "legitimacy" of the audit... have you ever taken the time to examine the "independence" and "legitimacy" of the media you rely on for your talking points? I know I consistently question my sources. It's why I like raw data when it's available and am skeptical of rumors even when they "favor" my position on a given issue.

    Be well.
    L33Ch likes this.
  20. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    For those wanting more bite-sized videos, here is the latest "Audit Update" from the Chairwoman of the Arizona Republican party, who's almost daily given updates on the matter:

    It seems that even Fox News (Tucker to be precise) is starting to cover some of the issues in Georgia as well... perhaps the neo-con element controlling much of that media outlet can't fire everyone that wants to do a story on the issue like they did Luo Dobbs.

    GA's Sec. of State is trying to blame Fulton County's locals... but he's the one that okay'd it despite lots of questions, especially about the fraudulent claim of a water main break before select people started (on camera) pulling ballots out from under a table/desk, etc. after observers and most other counters were sent home for the night.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
    L33Ch likes this.

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