FW Bonus Discussion now with Poll

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Dec 4, 2014.


Your Thoughts on Bonus

  1. Bonus: +4 / +2 Rune Reveals at start of the game. Boon: %60 Cooldown, Immunity Disease, 25% addition

    12 vote(s)
  2. Bonus: Champions you control have a cool down of 2 / 6. Boon: Immunity Disease, 30% Additional nora

    12 vote(s)
  3. Bonus: 10% / 5% on all champ deaths. Boon: %60 Cooldown, Immunity Disease (nora to 3)

    13 vote(s)
  4. other suggestion noted in this thread (list page# and who)

    5 vote(s)
  1. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    Many ST champions can take Frost damage but can't be Chilled or Frozen. It's a similar situation.

    Constructs/Undead are naturally resilient to Diseases and Poisons, but they aren't immune to the initial chemical reactions of the impact. A corrosive poison is going to leave a pockmark when it hits the side of a Construct's arm, but it's not going to do a significant amount of damage. Similarly, a disease that doesn't rely entirely on biological compounds is going to do minor damage before it fizzles out due to a lack of resources for spreading. Being Diseased or Poisoned means that you have a systemic affliction that continues to harm you as your body fights it off. Constructs/Undead don't need to do this because their bodies don't facilitate their spreading.

    Also, see War of the Worlds.
    Sirius likes this.
  2. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    yea if you think like that it makes sense
  3. Netherzen

    Netherzen I need me some PIE!

    I know some people consider that undead should be immune to disease and poison because of flavor and logic,but there are already many unlogical and unflavorful runes,and i think balance is more important then flavor.
  4. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Yobanchi makes a solid case - as does pretty much everyone else - for changing poison resistance to no bonus at all. Even so, the idle 'f you' that removal of disease immunity seems like a poor tradeoff in for 1-2 points of more accurate costs, especially when those cost changes are associated with an immunity to a whopping 10 runes outside of FW (those units with rabid, attack disease, or disease aura). Because of the function of disease damage within Pox Nora, disease immunity functions much more as a personal safeguard than it does a detriment to the opponent. There are good reasons to change up the poison resistance on boon, but tweaking the disease immunity portion seems to have little substance at the present time.

    Entrepidus, what is your worry about KF/Hurry? That sounds like an inefficient way to get something closer to the FW FF bonus while in a split with a faction that features one of the weakest split bonuses in the game; even so, there may be some interaction I am missing there. If 2/6 is really terrifying to a lot of people - which I can understand if disagree with - 3/7 sounds like a better tweak.
    Netherzen and TeaScholar like this.
  5. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    - Immunity Disease is necessary

    - The nora refund upon death idea MIGHT happen, h0spy. You can't tell the future

    - Nobody cares about Poison.

    - I trust Yobanchi

    - I don't really care anymore

    - I'm in it for the long haul

    - If we suck, I'll just lose, nbd
  6. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Good to see discussion going on concerning this!

    Immunity Disease is indeed a safeguard and keeping it on boon is both flavorful simple and synergistic.

    Sadly there are still a fair amount of in faction disease champs and damage sources that would need tweaks if boon lost immunity. I attempted hypothetically finding all the interactions and came up with a fairly large list that persuaded me that the simpler solution would be to simply keep it.

    For example... Corpse pile would need to lose Disease aura. Desecration would also now start hitting your own champs regularly. Festering wounds would need to be enemy only. Zombie lumbering aura adjustments? Just a few things off the top of my head at the moment.

    The more elegant change would be disease immunity and introduce a cauldron-esk ability that removes disease immunity instead.

    The flat cool down on champs could potentially be problematic at 2/6.
    3/7 seems awkward so I'd probably go with 4 / 8 as it basically translates to having a cool down of 40 nora champ for all units (with 50% reductio for FF).

    The current Bile zombie cools down for 4 turns so this effectively would dampen the sub 40's in FF but make higher and mid cost runes a lot more relevent.

    In split faction it becomes much harder to benefit though and we run the risk of creating another KF that has a really bad split.

    I probably lean more towards #1 and #3... either the rune reveals or death refund.
    Both are pretty powerful with death refund causing a plethora of synergy already with a lot of champs.
    TeaScholar likes this.
  7. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    I doubt people are splitting with FW now because of the bonus. if ever. so a different bonus can only help our split potential.
  8. jigz2009

    jigz2009 The King of Potatoes

    Wow Ragic you're alive! And you're name is back without a "K" :D
  9. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    its ragick in game though...
  10. cyphedias

    cyphedias New Member

    wanna post some ideas too

    i dont like the rune reveals it has nothing to do with the necromantish art that forsaken wastes has offer

    and the scond possiblility choice of the 10% nora refund upon death is much better but i would go to a flat amount rathe then a procentisch
    its much easier to balance and could trigger sumons and real champs alike i would say make it 2 nora per death in ff and 1 nora in split but that could
    be way too op

    so here is my idea
    60/30% cooldown reduction on ALL runes

    necromancy in not only about cheap meat
    i honentestly think this would be awesome even if some tweaking to spells cooldown needed to be done (maybe relics too)
    but if it would be a 2 turn decrease in cool down in the end on spells i would tottaly take it ;)

    funfact im not even using that many spells XD

    and i think since we have some spells that refund themselves it could be really a good way to improve our bonus while making us not to op since we still have to pay the cost ;)
  11. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Dear lord, if our bonus became a flat cost return on the death of real champs... I would weep for joy.
    TeaScholar likes this.
  12. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    I'm sayin!
  13. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    So, would there actually be aversion to turning the FW bonus into flat nora back on death? That is sufficiently different from SP, but it would need support to get through. Perhaps 6/3 on your champ (real only) death, or 4/2 on any?
  14. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Only real champs. And percentages sound better.
  15. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I just figure, flat would create a greater differentiation from SP. Also, it would be a huge buff to Broken Bones.
  16. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    A flat bonus would definitely favor lower nora champs.

    6/3 nora per real champ death (friendly and Enemy) sounds about right to me.

    It would boost this up to just bellow Kf/SP/FS in my opinion as it is backloaded but has very good synergy potential.

    In any case it looks like rune reveals and on death nora are the two most popular ideas out there.

    OH... Here's an idea.

    Rune Reveal-
    FF: At the beginning of your turn reveal an extra rune and if you can not then conceal a rune on cool down.
    SF: At the beginning of your turn reveal an extra rune.

    This gives late game and early game benefits.
    This also would happen before normal rune reveals.
    Woffleet likes this.
  17. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I like the idea of tweaking the rune reveal setup to improve late-game potential, but that is a seriously random benefit. If a player has 6-7 runes on cooldown, that's only about a 15% chance of getting any particular rune, which can be seriously brutal. No idea how to tweak it for improvements, but that level of randomness being integrated into a factions power would be frustrating.
  18. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    @kalasle very true.

    Perhaps if it was tweaked like so?

    FF: Conceal one champion rune on cool down and reveal 1 rune at the beginning of your turn.
    Split: Reveal 1 rune at the beginning of your turn.

    That brings the random down at least.
  19. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    @yobanchi It certainly does. What boon would that version of the bonus be paired with? The champ CD version would seem redundant - but that boon version can still be used if the faction bonus was changed to reset spells instead.
  20. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Well, if the bonus become reveal rune / conceal champ rune then I'd imagine the boon would be the one without the reduction. Could very well be the New boon mentioned (Vuln disease, Disease Eater, Overkill, 2 nora)

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