FW Bonus Discussion now with Poll

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Dec 4, 2014.


Your Thoughts on Bonus

  1. Bonus: +4 / +2 Rune Reveals at start of the game. Boon: %60 Cooldown, Immunity Disease, 25% addition

    12 vote(s)
  2. Bonus: Champions you control have a cool down of 2 / 6. Boon: Immunity Disease, 30% Additional nora

    12 vote(s)
  3. Bonus: 10% / 5% on all champ deaths. Boon: %60 Cooldown, Immunity Disease (nora to 3)

    13 vote(s)
  4. other suggestion noted in this thread (list page# and who)

    5 vote(s)
  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    The issue:
    Back in the day of 20 rune docks the FW bonus set was very relevant and powerful.
    Runes like ice block or summon serpent allowed enemies to contest from spell presence giving the DMZ font bonus real tangible benefits.
    Enemies also ran the real risk of running out of champs as the number of reveals were lower along with the total amount of champions in their bg to draw from.
    This gave FW a golden window from which they could literally overrun the board once the enemy was trapped inside the cool down from losing too many champs.

    With the increase to 30 rune docks and nerfing of the contesting spells from presence this has reduced the effectiveness of both the Faction bonus and font bonus significantly.
    Champ numbers in bgs increased by 50% making it extremely rare to run out of champions even with full cool downs. The DMZ also now purely delays gank spells by a turn or optimal placement of AOE spells.

    The result of this is that the bonus as it stands now only significantly effects 25% of the champions in faction as to relevance in a match. With an average match anywhere from 15 rounds to 30min and under champions below a nora threshold are the only ones truly benefiting from spam play while champs that are high cost may be seen twice at most and then only at the tail end of that 15 rounds. Out of those only the ones designed to be recycled and are efficient are of any true use (think afflicted corpse, death guard, bile zombie as the main benefactors out of the entire faction as other runes).

    In either case what has happened is that the bonus is so bad that Boon of the Undead has been used as a justification for why the bonus is so bad. Boon is an ability that has been perceived as a slightly discounted ability that includes a number of small effects that can have an unbalancing perception of power vs a number of bgs. Namely the faction wrecks poison and fear bgs.

    The nora increase from globes also further muddles the true benefit/cost of boon. When considering that the nora returns on it are roughly 1-2 for small/normal priced units and 3 for large priced rarer instances it seams like on paper that it's a good deal.

    However, this turns out to be a detriment as the cost is on all undead champions. Akin to a global dead eater it ends up counteracting the benefits of globe collection as every unit you deploy ups the cost to break even for what you are paying. IOW each unit has to collect at the very least a few globes to break even and there is no way you collect that many globes during a vast majority of regular matches.

    Basically your boon units are masking a cost increase on very narrow abilities with only immunity offering any consistent returns due to the large presence of disease within the faction which has also been scaled down as for aura and AOE availability in the revamp.

    We would like to revamp the bonus to either bring it and the boon ability into line so that it is more straightforward and offers you a tangible bonus without causing unbalanced specific enemy matchup experiences.


    #1) Rune Reveals (+4/+2) Boon of the Dead (2 nora): Immunity Disease, 60% Cooldown, 25% Nora bonus from globes

    This basically moves the flavorful but irrelevant in 75% of the champs cool down bonus to boon of the undead and ups the return slightly from nora globes. This combined with additional rune reveals allows the FW bonus to be early game consistency and late game boon of the undead.

    It goes hand in hand allowing the FW bg to be able to run less champs and avoid "champ screw" in the early game which is a similar concept to mana screw in MTG. You can now run 1x of those 25% nora threshold champs that boon benefits the most. This gives more flexibility in bg creation for FW builds.

    The cons of this idea is that it is not a flashy or complex bonus. However it is statistically significant and does fit in with the theme that FW is more challenging to play.

    #2) Champion cool downs are 2 / 6 Boon of the Dead (2 nora): Immunity Disease, 30% Nora bonus from Globes

    This basically evens the field so that instead of only the most efficient champions below the optimal cooldown/nora threshold are played it applies to all champions evenly. The 2 cool down for champions allows all efficient champs to receive the same benefit from the bonus. This truly gives a more tangible bonus as you can now have options for deploy on all champions instead of illusionary option choices (cool downs of 8 meaning a champ will come off at the end of the match basically means the cool down bonus was irrelevant on that champ).

    I chose a 6 cool down for half bonus as that is the lowest cool down for a regular champ. This leaves champs being able to be played mid game and will feel like a good half way point for the bonus effect.

    For boon both poison and fearless are removed (3 horas worth of abilities) and instead an increased % from nora was added. This is to avoid a huge cost decrease in boon champs and will help make it easier to recoup that bonus through globe collection to even out.

    #3) 10% / 5% nora gain from friendly/enemy champion destruction. Boon of the Dead (3 nora): Immunity Disease, 60% cool down

    This may step on SP's toes a little but is significantly different in that while it is significantly backloaded it provides for much more potential in that it can effect enemies and friendly champion destruction.

    The thing with the current cool down bonus is that it does not offer a tangible nora boost and instead gives you options for deployment. As stated above with the 15 champs you will not run out of champs to deploy so the cool down is purely an option (I can deploy this champ again instead of this other champ which is available regardless). The true limiting factor for the cool down is therefore nora.

    With the bonus becoming solid and significant boon of the dead can afford a less cost decrease from removing the poison/fearless/globe nora unbalancing factors. In essence paying a more normalized cost for immunity/cooldown which is blunted with the new bonus.

    Potential issues concerning this is that, like sp, it will make our champs very very efficient and significantly increase our attrition abilities. It also will put a premium on champs that die twice such as riders, General K, Coragh, and brainless/pot units. Basically the bonus is the same power level as others.

    Our Nora generating items like unholy tomb may need to take a hit to balance out the faction.
    If deemed so I would recommend Unholy tomb to go to 35 nora and be reduced to 1 dmg/1nora return stacking. (basically you'd need to rune x2 and pay 70 nora to get the same effect currently).

    #4) Some other bonus you or someone in the thread has come up with.
    There have been lots of ideas but very few that have offered concrete suggestions with corresponding supporting reasoning.

    If you have a concrete idea that you can back up with solid reasoning to argue a case for a specific change post it. If you see someone else's idea make sure you note it in your response so I can track.

    These are just suggestions in the end and may not be enacted soon or at all. They are mainly to bring attention to unbalancing issues that has been present with the FW bonus and boon for a long long time.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  2. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    i actually have an idea which is to penalize your opponent
    it the same as the second option
    4/2 cd with an addition of 2/1 increase to your opponent cd
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Will have to think about it more when considering where to place a vote. One thing off the bat, though: I don't think we should be using the bonus as a cross comparison for how to adjust boon beyond checking for overlap. Obviously, if we have nora generation benefits, we should think about that, and if cool down is on one location it won't be in the other, but option 3 should not have a more expensive global boon because of an apparently better bonus. That is the kind of reasoning you outlined in the introduction. It's fine, but it's application here appears inconsistent. I'd probably be interested in that version if boon was cheaper.

    By the way, thanks for putting all of this stuff together. Awesome job, very helpful.
  4. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    No problem, As stated boon has been increasingly seen as the reason the bonus is so bad so inevitably it is, weather we like it or not, tied to the bonus in some fashion.

    The bonus change is to help relieve pressure from Boon and bring the main bonus more inline. You do have good points and I fretted a little over the perception of the varying boon discount. Option 3 is a very significant top tier bonus in my opinion even if it is backloaded in most cases.
  5. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I'll need more support as to why and the benefit of including this.

    2 cd is basically the cheapest cool down we have under the current bonus but applied to all units equally.
    6 cd is basically the cheapest cool down normal units have which would apply equally.

    4 cool down for split may not be too dramatic a change but the 2/1 increase for your appointments cool down does not seem worth the added complexity.
  6. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    i was going to make it 6/4 3/2 but i felt it was far too OP thats wy i have a lower CD but yea FW bonus should also focus on penalizing opponents as a added feature to make it stand out but not too much so people complain like the current bonus
  7. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I think interactivity should come from the board, not mathematically through the faction bonus. There is still a huge amount of thematic design space to explore that purely benefits the player. Negative interactions can be frustrating and uninteresting - it's why there are rarely competitive mill decks in MTG.
  8. xezno

    xezno I need me some PIE!

    WOW just wanted to say I am impressed with the thoroughness and detail of this post. Being still relatively new to the game I learned quite a bit just by reading all this information. 20 rune docks sound fun and yet insane since I find it so hard now to just pick 30. Anyway excellent work and it looks like FW is really in good hands.
    Woffleet likes this.
  9. bubbleman9

    bubbleman9 New Member

    would like to say that the extra rune revilve would srsly put stitched consealer out of buisness
  10. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    First and foremost, this is an exceptionally well structured, well thought out post yobanchi. It also covers the grounds for these changes that come straight from the community itself- many things in that post being things that FW vets talk among themselves about, made sense out of thanks to your posting abilities here. If the greens don't listen to you, they will be disappointing many players.

    Regarding the poll itself, I voted for #3.

    But- - very important- - The other two options, after seeing your proposed changes to the racial AS WELL as the faction bonus, I believe any of these options would be a justified and successful path and you have my full support.
    Woffleet likes this.
  11. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    Will we loose our poison resistance?
  12. Netherzen

    Netherzen I need me some PIE!

    Yes,its part of boon that over bloats it,cause people to use it an as justification for a crappy faction bonus and losing it will make the poison theme even more viable then it already is.Yobanchi explained all that in his post.

    Edit: Poison not crappy anymore
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
  13. Pasiphae

    Pasiphae The King of Potatoes

    Poison theme crappy?
    It rolls over most people and can even win over FW in the matches i have spectated.
  14. Netherzen

    Netherzen I need me some PIE!

    Alright,sorry for my ignorance.
  15. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Maybe if only certain champs got Boon, I'd vote for 3.
  16. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Could you elaborate on your reasoning here? It sounds like there is a point here that I am missing - too early in the morning for me.
  17. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Not all of the champs need it. It's early in the morning for me, but I think only Zombies and Skeletons should have Boon.
  18. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Ah, I see what you are saying. I dunno, maybe. Maybe it ends up not on creepers or something? A lot of the FW champs are straight up undead though, and even the ones that aren't clearly a zombie or a skeleton (Exec and Abom come to mind) seem like they should have it. Wastes are getting more humans in the form of witches.
  19. Netherzen

    Netherzen I need me some PIE!

    I play witches a lot and in all of my matches i have not once benefited from the faction bonus.The only human who could use cooldown bonus is Deathcaster.
  20. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Covah, they're gonna have boon if they're undead.
    I understand your concern in limiting the champs with boon.
    But it's unjustified.
    Any zombie, skeleton, lich, spirit, or otherwise will get the boon. Because they're undead.
    Humans, witches, you guessed it- no boon.

    You're not going to get away with proposing any important undead champs don't have their cooldown reduction. It's criminal.

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