Forsaken Waste Issues - please let me know

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Hello Fellow Forsaken Wasters

    I will be developing a list of issues, suggestions, bugs concerning the current state of FW and would like your thoughts on what you think is wrong with the faction as it stands right now after the revamp.
    As a side I would also like to know your favorite non-hero CHAMPION rune that you like to play post revamp at the end of your response.

    Please note that I understand the want for some themes/abilities to be totally reworked or the temptation to add new abilities. Please preclude these types of suggestions with a general feeling of the problem as it is more likely that the direct problem would be addressed and not necessarily redesigning the ability/champion.

    I will be taking a general look at all the other threads and will have this done this weekend. If you want to point me in a specific thread then feel free to link it and I'll take a look at it.

    Also have a nice 4th of July. Feel free to keep posting beyond Sunday but note that it may not get into the writeup/notes I am putting together.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2014
  2. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    undead magister is too expensive. spell blockade is the only reason to run it but not a double what a typical spell costs. either the cost of spell blockade is too high or he needs to some cost reducing either in stats or negative abilities. short lived 1 might make him more interesting. There are other ways to reduce cost but short lived is more consistent with FW's flavor and also gives him death benefit use as well as fixing him for skeletons.

    tormented priest lost a lot of his mojo when he lost his ichor ability. changing his dmg type to magical would make him tempting again but far from auto include.

    bonewing. I dunno, was the goal to make legs not interesting at all? he needs his range back at the very least. I just don't see what his 'role' is supposed to be. if they were thinking of combo'ing rebuke with drive on tomblords then they need to keep thinking (surge skeleton will always be the better upgrade choice over drive).

    fadewisp: zero desire to include him. don't know what a good fix would be, perhaps he belongs in a different theme im not seeing. spirits?

    graveyard: IF they make some sweeping change to summons (like making them all summons) don't forget this should lower the price of the graveyard.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2014
  3. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    Copying from my thread

    Completely killed stuff:

    Charge manipulation - add/remove charge dropped from everything, lots of units stripped from charged abilities as well, AoD lost propagate and knell is just a charged doom.
    Creeps - ff and all possible splits alltogether (half of creeps even lost creep)
    Soultap - all possible splits (soulfeast removed, backlash in wrong ability sets)
    ST stitched - crystalis now has death nova, also see monolith
    Stitched Monolith - lost ec, his lumbering compensation and key flavor ability
    Stitched Concealer - lost his role without getting anything
    Corrupted Guardian - lost his only comboenabler, now not runnable even in clops. Also since warwizard lost grant teleport, he would be barely runnable even in unnerfed state
    Venger - was a key chop piece and lost decay

    Other stuff:

    Foul Rite:
    almost no variations at all since barbs are not humans anymore
    reaper lost paladin class for no reason
    no detection or shatter on humans in both factions

    only UD split is currently runnable, since it's pretty impossible to run bleed on fw champs
    elder and lamia are really overcosted
    general range nerfs make it necessary to run dusk creepers, which is quite stupid
    seeker needs to have either 1+ range or mobility, cause currently he jumps to bloodball and cant attack engaged unit
    fascinate/phaseshift synergy completely destroyed
    count is not that bad, but really boring, needs fury back or something to make him interesting

    shroud removed from everything lowers melee usability
    bokor needs both soulcollection and coven
    magelord is now just a paincurse bot
    high warlock same as count - not bad, but absolutely no synergy with anything
  4. gillo

    gillo I need me some PIE!

    Soultap is bugged.

    Edit: Favourite rune after revamp... Uhhh still Mobilization.
  5. gillo

    gillo I need me some PIE!

    Dude, run High Warlock and be surprised (synergy with Dusk Creeper).
  6. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Let's keep the favorite runes to non-hero champions for now ^_^.
  7. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    That's not synergy, he attacks and that's it. I don't run goodstuffs, and warlock even has no race now.
  8. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    favorite rune to play would be the skeletal reaper. black death kills feeding souldrinker.
  9. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    For bugs, Soultap is still broken. Greater Vampirism is broken. Assimilate (dusk creeper) is broken. Favorite rune to play with, Broken Bones with Faithless and Flanking for 39 nora. Boosted they hit for 13 damage each.
  10. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Currently I'm torn between Rip Witch and Elsari Swordmage... they are both fantastic right now! I'm leaning a little more towards Swordmage though...
  11. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    Ravish on HW reads 20% not sure if you get the 20 or 25% in actual play

    hex on spawned Revenant from Lich Magistrate dosent work
  12. Shimaru

    Shimaru Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I know this is getting repetitive, but I really think this is an important topic that have been echoed through the forums in more or less subtle and rational ways: Ability costs. Comparing upgrades lines y crossing value with other champions that shares the same upgrades, I have been working on creating a table to determine the relative value of certain abilities, and the results have been baffling in some cases. While I will not post the entire list here (is not finished and there are issues at large to be looked at from the entire community), I think there are some particular cases that should be analyzed:

    Curse > Magical attack.
    Elsari coven (yes, again) > Boon of the undead, distract, vengeful, zombie apocalypse, rend / rabid 1.
    Soultap > soul collection
    Rabid 1 = Rend 1

    I found more strange cases, but only posted the specifics to FW as I think this would largely affect the price of mainly FW units, which is the goal of this thread. By adjusting the value of those units who are slightly overpriced, we may improve a larger number of champions than just going in a case by case with each rune. That doesn't mean this is the ultimate solution, neither there will not be need for a case by case analysis, but I think is a solid first step.

    Now, I don't think the solution is the same to every example, and personally I think

    1, 2- Elsari coven and curse should be reduced by 2n. The first is an ability that depends on having several units with the same ability and the opponent entering into DMZ to re-apply the effect, and even then, the effect is a debuff whose main appeal is the -1spd, while the second is a 50% attack with the same damage type than the unit using it. I can't understand how either is more expensive than: a conditional swarm tied to a race, or an attack that deals full damage at range with an alternate damage. Then vengeful or distract.

    3- Soultap requires a successful attack, is not stackable, can be cleansed and only generates 2n per turn. Per comparative, soul collection grabs all globes within a large area around the champion. If soultap triggers twice, the FW player will gain 4n. If soul collection triggers twice, it will generate at very least (64n × 15% = 9n) given the average cost of most champions right now in the meta. Clearly, soul collection should go up for 2n so soultap becomes the cheaper option.

    4- I... I'm not sure about this one... I feel something is wrong, but can't put my finger on what exactly is.

    Oh, yeah, my favourite champion: rip witch.
  13. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I know it may be a little repetitive but it would help greatly to put everything in one spot for the write up. I'll be pouring this thread mainly this weekend but will also try to search some of the current threads active. I'm only human though ^_^.
  14. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    No you're right, yobanchi. If we post everything we feel is underpowered, overcosted, etc. and also agree on it, then put it in the Original Post. You're doing a great job, FW leader!
  15. XFurionsX

    XFurionsX I need me some PIE!

    I dont think this is yobas fault.

    My favorite rune would be skelly lerper hitting very hard after revamp.
  16. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    The reason is that Rabid becomes useless if you face FW or Constructs but prevents healing. Rend is more useful all around but has no secondary effect.

    I would actually say the Lerper is a problem rune right now, reaching 30+ damage very easily. But I will just say that I think pretty much any champion with a Surge 2 is a "problem rune" in the new, lower damage, meta.

    My personal peeve rune is Fallen Hero:
    He lost his main gimick as a cheap tanky unit with block 2/riposte and went full "hunter". The problem is hunter has no side benefit when there is nothing to hunt. The second issue is that Hunter: Righteous might as well just be Hunter: Ironfist in everything except Priests.

    I just think Hunter is outdated and is inherently making this unit worse simply by being present, not being a choice and costing him sandbaggy nora. He needs a non-hunter option in that upgrade slot for people who want to use him in a... uh, ...battlegroup.

    Also, just mentioning that the Ghoul is no longer a zombie. Good theme-wise, because I don't really think a Ghoul is a zombie. But I can't quite pin where he should be. Mostly because he lost his tank role by losing both health and 3 defense. This means his main synergy is gone:
    i.e. Disease Shield + Defense + Revel In Misery.
    Having a diseased unit hit him would essentially allow him to prevent 6 (4 def & 2 healed) damage in melee while dealing 6 back. My main guess is he is a Disease BG Champion, acting as an expensive Amp.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2014
  17. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Oh, and could we make it so Ravenous Torrent specifically spawns a Carrionling as it was originally intended for the Carrion Colossus?

    Also he is a Swarm champion with Assimilate and Dead Eater as optional upgrades. I mean.. come on :p
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2014
    BroWatchThis likes this.
  18. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I really want Carrion Colossus to not suck XD
    That would honestly mean slight buff to Carrionling would need occur. Stats would have to be as follows: 5-6 dmg, 4-5spd (probably 4), 0 def, 15 hp, and you have officially made Carrion Colossus WORTH running.
  19. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    I would like clarification .
    Bleed - if 3 different champions, with the ability, attack the same champion there should be blood balls or if the first champion bloodies the opponent and produces a blood ball the other 2 attacks don't produce a blood ball

    Reason for the clarification blood balls are not being produced constantly from the champions that have the ability Bleed.
    Healing from Blood Magic is not constant when activated.
  20. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Blood magic requires them to be bloodied to deal damage and heal. The amount of healing can be affected by greater vampirism.

    Bleed states that the champion that is hit can only produce one blood ball at once. So until you pick that ball up, the enemy that made it can't make another.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014

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