Faction Bonus

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. jsat

    jsat The King of Potatoes

    Ok Gabriel, I'll keep it short. No. it doesn't work together. The current faction bonus only enables a small sub theme (cheap meat). the proposed bonus helps enable a one-of in the place of a 2-of in less that ten% of games. Instead, it really just provides draw consistency--which has next to nothing to do with FW. Instead, let's take a small nora gain on death bonus because it actually has FW flavor.
  2. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    Why it does work together:
    If you have reduced cooldowns, you should be able to run fewer champions without fear of running out in a long match, also, you are safer running a more highlander approach on non-key runes. But, you can't actually do that, because the risk of not-drawing a champion to run your fonts is too big.
    Now, if you have more reveals in your first turn, you should be able to run fewer champions and more one-offs, because your chances of drawing them is greater. But, you can't actually do that, because the risks of not having enough champions for a long game, or the risk of losing early your only unit with a purpose (example, your only detection unit) is too big.
    As you see, each one allows to reap the benefits of the other, and they are much less if used separatedly.
    This would benefit every theme.
  3. Spirodela

    Spirodela New Member

    I have to agree with GabrielQ on this one, 2 extra reveal not only allow for 96% chance of getting at least one champ in the openning hand with 11 champs in bg but also allow for 93% chance of drawing 3+ champ in the first 6 rounds which is comparable to the 97% chance of drawing 3+champ in a 15 champ bg with no bonus draw.
  4. jsat

    jsat The King of Potatoes

    And now is the part where I direct you to read my post where I explained (in great, numerical and precise language) the exact effect of the proposition and several close alternatives that do a better job powering out the one-of-as-two-of concept. Two random draws is that 6% more likely turn 1 and hits the 50% mark 1 turn earlier.. which is marginal but not nothing...and it only helps make cheap meat a little more consistent which sort of enables the fw theme of advantage from death. the real advantage is marginal consistency, not chance of seeing a one of (though i feel compelled to repeat myself--yes, obviously it makes it more consistent).

    reiterate: card draw does LITTLE to enable an ALREADY WEAK enabler of death benefit. DB = haunt, wake the dead, etc, not cheap meat.

    We need to have a more basic conversation: what is the soul of fw?

    Please assume the role of the advocate for two card draw and justify why FW should have its advantage/flavor/theme be card drawing consistency.
  5. jsat

    jsat The King of Potatoes

    and Spirodela, I know you get it. We both understand perfectly well what the advantage of card draw is--it enables you to run fewer of x redundant effect and still see it. It is certainly NOT that it helps you find a one-of much faster. You are literally exactly 6.7% more likely to see a 1-of each and every turn. This is not large. for a 2+ of the effect is much more dramatic. The math SHOWS the effect on 1-of is very small.

    So it in no real way enables the 1-of cheap recycling meat. the argument from that perspective is entirely specious.

    The real benefit is consistency of 2+ of runes of all types.

    if you advocate for 2+ draw the logic shows you must explain why that is the heart of fw
  6. Spirodela

    Spirodela New Member

    btw, force of will is pretty op.
    back on topic, I for one advocate for a 2 extra intial rune draw because I have always thought of fw as the faction of options and flexibility, if I have to give this state of a faction something flavorful, I'd call it ageless wisdom, I mean if time is of no importance, what's more attractive then gathering more knowledge and information? Allowing me to run 11 champs rather than 15 yet still keeping champ count consistensy would more than certainly allow give room to some of the runes that could possibly save the day but are not mandatory, in MTG speaking have extra outs.

    I do however agree with jsat the effect of initial 2 extra draw on drawing a SPECIFIC champ is relative marginal(especially if the champ is only run singleton), however, I think to assess the synergy between 2 bonus draws and fw bonus, a better way is to categorize champs into brackets of cool down. High cost champ are things that I don't like to be killed so I don't see the bonus as a bonus. To make the fw bonus useful, I think i would like to deploy a champ, let it do something, then get killed and redeploy. Assuming the game goes around 14 rounds, assuming I'm ok with a champ with life expectancy of 4 rounds, that leaves champ with about 5 rounds cool down to make the bonus useful. deploy + 4 rounds + dead(cooldown) + redeploy(4 round) -> game end. that means for if the champ have 5 cool down, i would like to deploy it within the first 3 turns to maximize my use of faction bonus.

    In that case, just a simple example where in an 11 champ deck, i run 5 champ with 5 round cool down, birdie + ethereal soliders + whispergast, by having 2 bonus reveal i have a marginal gain of 17%,10%,8% chance of drawing at least one of them in the first 3 rounds, the raw chance with 2 bonus reveal is around 70% 80% 90%.

    In conclusion, I support fw getting 2 extra rune reveal in the beginning of the round, because it marginally increase the chance of our current bonus being actually used in a game and most importantly allow all fw decks to have increased flexibilities, options and outs. I like options, that's all.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  7. Vallassa

    Vallassa The King of Potatoes

    I never really liked the idea of changing the faction bonus. Mostly because it is so flavourful for the faction. I find the extra rune reveal idea fairly boring. Sure, it can help the first few turns, but after that its useless. If we have to change it, change it to something that will benefit us no matter what game period we are in. And to try include flavour with it, remember, we are the undead (most of us); creatures resurrected from the dead to reek havoc to all humans, elves and beasts!
  8. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    It is flavourfull.
    Anthropomancy is the art of divination from the enthrail of dead animals/people.
    How can anything be more flavourfull for the necromantic faction than a faction bonus with something of the sort in it?

    The change is not just for the early game since it is in addition to the exisitng one. Having the runes revealed early will benefit you late on as well since there is a greater change you will have the tools you need and you will still have the cooldown bonus.
  9. Vallassa

    Vallassa The King of Potatoes

    I guess to me it feels kinda bland and boring. Good explanation though. :oops:
  10. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I personally don't mind the additional rune draws as it fits nicely from a comparative bonus perspective. The cool downs are literally more for show/flavor then actual impact which has been discussed ad naus. but I'd be happy to delve back into that if needed.

    Other possible bonuses that did receive a little bit of traction were (if my memory serves me correctly) negating the enemy bonus. Only issue was that it caused too much of a negative mental effect on the enemy player and some factions like KF would really hurt.

    Nora for dead champs does sound thematic but is again, a backloaded bonus that sounds like it would only make us 'loose slower' and buffing attrition is probably not high on the list. Nora recycling and nora globe benefits are probably best left for actual abilities on champs as flavor abilities that are part of the faction but not the full bonus (soul collection, dead eater, Death Harvester).

    Other possible ideas: *EDITED*

    FF: Your Avatar maintains its deployment zone and Nora generation when transfigured
    SP: Your Avatar maintains its Nora generation when transfigured.
    *note* Creeps have this ability already to a point so its probably more doable then you'd think.
    It also opens up some interesting incentives for FW to "win faster" instead of slowly atrittioning.

    FF: All friendly champions have defiling Aura (x).
    SP: Defiling Aura (X/2)
    *edit* Can't remember the ability at the moment but I believe either having it so that all champs have defiling aura or a defiling touch attack. This is a significant bonus that helps thematically and mechanically. Some adjustment to certain debufs may be required to balance.

    The Cap
    FF: champions have +4 maxAP storage cap
    SF: champions have +2 Max AP storage cap
    This is assuming that KF gets their bonus straitened out to not be AP cap related.
    Either way this type of bonus allows for a slow immediate advantage in superior positioning flexibility.

    FF: Enemy shrine - health and/or Friendly Shrine +Health
    SF: half those
    While not the most interesting it is a currently unused bonus source and use to be the IS way back if I remember correctly (could be wrong don't quote me)

    FF: You may deploy champions on spaces containing nora globes within your spell presence.
    SF: You may deploy champions on spaces containing nora globes adjacent to your champions.
    Probably the most difficult to code but still thematic. Works with creeps.

    The wish
    FF: Friendly champs have all upgrades
    SF: Champs have an additional upgrade when deployed.
    Pretty much OP suggestion ^_^ would love to see some kind of interesting upgrade bonus just as a mental exercise to see if it is doable.

    FF: All champions have -100% cool down
    SF: All champions have -50% cool down
    May as well try going to the extreme with the current one. Meh

    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  11. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    On the deployment will the on the shrines spell presence or any champion?
  12. KTCAOP

    KTCAOP I need me some PIE!

    I'm sorry, I am having trouble understanding what you are asking.
  13. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    If you are referencing prior post basically the Full Faction one would be within total spell presence generated by champions and the shrine.

    The Split Faction bonus would be only spaces adjacent to a champion (IE the immediate spaces right next to the champion like the spaces you could place a relic... Relic presence?).

    It's only a rough idea and probably would need to be 1 - 2 spaces from champion since nora globe pickup is kinda wonky and you'd end up picking up the globe before using it.

    Anyway it's just a weird idea and would probably take too much coding.
  14. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    Answers included in quote
    yobanchi likes this.
  15. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    To be honest, Banshee, those latest Yobanchi suggestions are pretty mindblowing.
  16. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    I've always been against reveals for FW (or for anyone else) - diversity is the greatest pox feature, and if you/opponent have optimal rune at hand more often - it's plain boring.
    I'm also against nora bonuses for all factions.

    Best solution for me would be additional slots or autoincluded runes.
  17. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    Additional slots wont help and i proberly not possible to code. And having some autoincluded runes is again proberly uncodeable and weird since it could very likely be runes taht are not usefull for the type of Bg you play.

    and Again KISS
  18. XFurionsX

    XFurionsX I need me some PIE!

    I always thought that avatars should have a major role when transfigured, basically people transfigure the avatar just to run away, or to use one abilitie and then run away, so, supershrine idea by yoba its pretty cool.
  19. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    Banshee raises a good point about why the current bonus is bad: nora. We still have to pay it when we deploy those champions, and even if we had 100% CD reduction on champions, we would still be limited by available nora. In trying to keep with the flavor of the present bonus as much as possible, while at the same time trying to alleviate this problem, I propose the following bonus.

    FF: Champion runes you own have their CD reduced by 60%. When a champion you own dies, its nora cost is reduced by 10% permanently, stacking up to 5 times.
    Split: Champion runes you have have their CD reduced by 50%. When a champion you own dies, its nora cost is reduced by 5% permanently, stacking up to 5 times.

    This bonus clearly favors cheap, efficient champions and death benefit/attrition decks, which has always been FW's style. The bonus is balanced by the fact that if you build solely to take advantage of the nora decrease by running all cheap champs (possibly with Serkan/Vendetta), you lose out on early game power, in addition to your champs generally being worse than the opponent's. Since it is unlikely that your expensive units such as Lich King or High Warlock will die often (even with this bonus, it's better to keep them safe and alive), one would not be able to abuse the bonus to get massive efficiency for powerful champions. The CD reduction will remain the same; atm, how often do you deploy Serkan more than once in a match? Hardly ever. Thus, this bonus will reward players who can draw out the game long enough to reap the rewards of cheaper deploys, meaning the longer a game goes on, the less we will have to pay for deploys. This will mean that we will get rushed quite a bit more than usual, but with a decrease to speed creep in the works, I don't foresee it as a problem.
  20. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    Lets please not expand further on losing champions as our bonus.
    Every other faction has a bonus that helps them deploy more champions, kill champsions faster or keep their champions alive.
    FW has a bonus that only works when we get our champions killed.
    Adding more of the same is NOT the solution.

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