Faction Bonus

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Please refrain from discussing only BOON of the Dead, make a separate thread concerning that topic.

    Time to open up an old wound as the dead tend to do.
    Shall we bring back the discussion of the FW faction bonus?

    There was a lengthy discussion a while ago but I was unable to find it (perhaps it was in the general chat instead of the FW forum, will have to check again).

    The consensus was along the lines of this:

    FF: Reveal 2 runes at the start of the game, your champions have -60% cool down (split 1 & -30%)

    This would allow FW to capitalize on running fewer champs without risking not drawing them in the opening hands. It also balances the back ended bonus with something on the front end.

    It was also suggested that reducing the cool down would be acceptable trade off it people find simply adding it is too much.

    *Please leave specific BOON out of the discussion unless it is bonus related as it is quickly derailing the thread X_X*
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  2. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    With new owners (or the return of the old ones?) this is the perfect time to bring up FW's bonus (and KF's as well). It seems to be the most likely time for something to be done about those bonuses.
  3. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, I would like to see the current faction bonus moved to spells/champions instead. Let low cooldowns be part of a theme, not the basis for all forsaken units. The faction as a whole doesn't need it, just certain battlegroups.

    Also, while we're on the subject of faction issues. What about the undead race limiting racial abilities?
  4. only

    only Active Member

    FF FW - at the beginning of your turns you reveal 1 additional rune.
    FW/X - at the beginning of your every second turn you reveal 1 additional rune.

    but it would mean removing boon of the undead and double_race undead across the board.
  5. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    The common suggestion was simply extra runes on the first turn or over the first few turns. Not over the whole game.

    What would? the removal of Undead as a race? To be honest, boon can exist without the Undead race and the removal of Undead would require only changes to certain abilities and spells that interact with Undead to use Boon instead.
  6. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    The draw bonus could be done a number of ways:

    1) Reveal an additional 3 runes in your opening hand - split: 1
    2) Whenever a real champion dies reveal a rune - split: 2 champions die reveal 1
    3) Whenever you deploy a champion reveal a rune - split: 2 champions reveal 1
    4) Reveal an additional rune every round - split: every 2 rounds

    As for the boon/race undead topic this may end up needing to be removed/streamlined anyway with the focus on reducing champion abilities.
    Boon of the undead: this champion has -60% cool down.
    Boon would remain on specific units designed to capitalize on the lower cool down.
    This also makes boon grants from spells/equips more relevant and opens up design space for more cool down effects.

    However, doing away with the disease immunity may require that auras, breaths, unholy tomb, festering wounds be made to not effect friendly champs.

    As for race undead, maybe just have it be the basic undescript undead race and remove it from all the lich/skeleton/zombies currently out there.
    Again unholy tomb and refresh would need to be revised to stipulate friendly/non-friendly.
  7. only

    only Active Member

    I guess it depends on how do you value runeS on first turn vs gift of scrying.
  8. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    The FW bonus should allow people to run fewer champion than the rest of the factions, but the risk of not revealing a champion first turn is too high, first turn reveals would help with that.
    Now, If you want to go a bit more in deep, the bonus also allow the FW player to run a more highlander deck without that being too punishing, again, reveals in general would help with consistency.
    My point is that reveals would make a good complement to the current bonus but if the CD reduction goes to boon of the undead it would help witches and creeps even less.
  9. Shimaru

    Shimaru Devotee of the Blood Owl

    BotU again? How is so hard to understand that:

    a) The supposed nora bonus is meaningless. 20% from nora globes is +3n nora when recovering a globe dropped by a 105n champion. However, more often than not, the bonus is 1 or 2 nora extra per globe. How many units do you lose on your average battle? I remember someone said the battle in average last 14 turns, lets say the opponent loses 1 champion every turn, and the FW player picks the globe every single time (both are big assumptions); this would mean BotU generates the whopping amount of 28n per battle. Barely half the cost of most game turning spells, like mobi.

    b) I have been said this over and over: full immunities and global abilities are bad for the game. Fearless and disease immunity are bad, and should have been changed for resistances so long ago is not funny anymore. In fact, the poison immunity was adjusted to a resistance because this, but then we got construct immunities, figures.

    c) BotU is not free. TCGBay had the costs for each ability, even if they were at base, and BotU was costed at 4n. In all fairness, removing BotU would imply a 4n discount on most champions, but obviously nobody wants that because, apparently, some champions would become so ridiculously efficient they would break the entire internet in half.
  10. only

    only Active Member

    well, ofcourse losing BotU would be bad. that's why they would get better faction bonus (reveals).
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  11. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Perhaps a new thread should be made specifically to discuss boon but it tends to get tangled up regularly in Faction bonus discussions to the point where people end up arguing about weather or not to include it in the discussion.

    IMHO boon should loose all the immunities and extra abilities and just be the cool down reduction. Nice, simple.

    If you have a champion who needs those types of bonuses then have abilities like dead eater / fearless on those champions that are thematic.
  12. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Tbh I am fine with boon being reworked. But there are some things in there that are required. FW as a faction needs to be immune to its own disease effects. Right now it uses immunity to disease. I am fine with removing the immunity, but Boon would need to cover allied immunity so it didn't destroy existing themes and make many disease units way less viable.
  13. Silveraine

    Silveraine I need me some PIE!

    I would like to agree to this provided this happens only if the bg revolves around disease tactics. Like how fire/poison bgs compliment this nature with fire/poison eater. Other than that boon giving free immunities to every Fw unit sounds bad. o_O
  14. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    What if we go right to the source and make disease auras/breaths only effect enemy units?
    With that modification the only other runes that would need to be adjusted is festering wounds (have it be all enemy champs).

    Another possible alternative solution would be to have units that grant friendlies within X spaces disease eater.
  15. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    Keep as is and add + 2 reveals at start of game was the one that had the biggest support when last it was discussed in the FW forum. It would allow FW to use fewer champions and include our counters instead.

    Possibly you could move the lowered cooldown to Boon so living champons do not benefit from it. I dont think it is necesary but it could be done.
  16. gillo

    gillo I need me some PIE!

    Why on earth do you want to change boon?
    Onifrk likes this.
  17. gillo

    gillo I need me some PIE!

    How does this:
    Result in this:
  18. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    It would be immunity to themselves, not enemies. If every unit that needed the immunity got Disease Eater, people would try for nerfs at the amount of healing they were getting.

    Similarly, if we just removed the immunity, we'd get a lot of complained about all the units in the BG killing themselves.
  19. Silveraine

    Silveraine I need me some PIE!

    I didn't have every unit in mind. It was just a comparison I made to fire/poison decks. Not all champs in these bgs have fire/poison eater, but some do.

    If you were to ask for disease not affecting FW units, then would others be right to ask fire not affecting UD champs? This is the main question which I believe we must address. :)
    And the first step would be not to employ global immunities. Thoughts?
  20. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Yes but Fire/poison decks don't have a large number of slow lumbering zombie champs which make it hard to actually position them to avoid their own auras.
    Unless you'd like to remove lumbering from all champs?

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