Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by Sokolov, Nov 23, 2017.
Afflict and Tormented are both duds on him because of his low base HP.
Right now I am considering giving him Decay vs Healing Mind on an upgrade line, so you can decide whether you want him to be anti-healing for cheap, or pay more to be on attack heals for you own guys.
So other than the hope that in 2020 poxnora will be something more than...this...which isn't a bad sentiment. I can't help if just because I post a snarky comment you read it as 'HATE TO ALL POXANTHURU!"
Quite the opposite, if you acknowledge the meat of my post I suggest a model I think would be more beneficial and far superior to what we have now. If you don't understand what the meat of my post is that's fine, ask. These people that get offended because something so trivial to one gets looked over and mocked by others is pretty humorous and all I can do is post topics that get responses. Even if those responses are along the lines of "stop playing" or "post somewhere else" when in fact I've done just as much if not more than some/most? I'm motivated by your denial that what I'm doing is unbeneficial...really I am, keep it coming.
Use some critical thinking and take a look at what it is you like AND what it is others don't like, and not accept that because something is getting change, is up on the slate to be changed or is finally changed that the change itself is any better than the previous state or one not yet tested. That is the entire purpose of a legacy system...to have a concrete model that players can proactively look back on during XYZ Expansion/Patch and see how that rune operated in said state. Otherwise we get posts from @Sokolov that seems more obnoxious and crude than what @SireofSuns thinks of my comments as with @Etherielin @MaruXV @AndOthersSoEasilyOffended
Leave if you think your photographic memory of this game is actually beneficial, it's not and I honestly get thrilled that I have yet to figure out what is newly patched, but not so much so that I take a break and the runes I play are entirely different from one week to the next.
Yes I give a crap about the content of Poxnora, so much so that I would enjoy playing previous states of the game in a model that would not be so hard to pull of if we can just get a model of how runes are scrapped/buffed/nerfed and implement it into a cohesive system that works with PvE and potentially PvP Leagues.
It is idiotic to think that the model Path of Exile cannot be applied to Poxnora; the system is specifically for balance and what gets patched in/out and above all it gives players access to more than just one rune asset such as the Tormented Priest with Dark Healing and the Tormented Priest without.
All I want for Christmas is for players to understand Content is King and a Legacy System creates a better model for @Sokolov to do his job and for players to acquire a larger rune pool. #FearMeIMTHEGRINCH!
That is also your opinion...
I can stack and boost max HP very easily in Pox. Especially FW so idk what you are talking about unless you are only viewing this rune from the perspective of PvP, which doesn't quite make sense considering there are more tutorials than there are active PvP players day to day so is this really the best use of your time? Sir, ready for my 101 lesson SIR!
All I want for Christmas is for @Sokolov to understand the Legacy System, even if it's not implemented...which would be a poor decision once/if he can understand.
Your post counts as off-topic and spam within the context of this thread. Shoo.
As a whole yes my post does count towards the original post, I do give a crap about this rune specifically because I play it in a manner that makes use of not just Dark Healing but, Tormented and Afflict...which @Sokolov believes makes the rune a dud. I am fine with change and new content, but not the reworking of completed and existing content.
The whole of my comments has been about how I do not like arbitrary change and that I also am disgusted by @Sokolov approach to this runes discussion, I find it distasteful and disrespectful to the content (ironically something he should be proud of)
My input is entirely valid and I would like you @Etherielin to remove your personal bias towards me and look at what it is I am saying. Since this discussion is about Tormented Priest a more appropriate response from you, if you are a mod, is to direct my conversation in this specific thread towards a more productive conversation rather than trying to silence the opposing views, of who we have less and less of these days as @MaruXV and yourself @Etherielin and others so adamantly point. I find it more productive and beneficial as a whole to remain here and have my opinions developed upon rather than migrate to other games that never match up to poxnora. A sentiment most of us players feel.
I find my input more on topic and less of spam as a player post than your moderation in because I have actually supplied relevant input to the conversation.
You should have asked what I want from Tormented Priest if you are actually a moderator and deserving of the title...honestly its poor moderation to dismiss discussion that amounts to more debate and response than what you bring up.
Now to get to the question you should have asked me in a failed attempt at moderation...and that is "What or how would you @aseryen like Tormented Priest to play, provide examples if you could."
@Etherielin Ty for asking...
As it is now Tormented Priest is a great rune, debate what great is all you want but if you'd like me to bring up the discussion on Shroud of Al'mara I can...my point was proven there and I will attempt to reiterate it here...
We have a completed rune, it's content is playable. Debate how much it gets played all you want, the completion of the rune imo trumps how often it gets played. This is because we are now talking about time invested. This time invested towards remodeling an existing rune may be quicker or simpler short term but is more harmful long term. I think this because as we transition from the original runes design to a more 'immediately playable meta rune' we have in fact regressed to SOE days.
I would like to advocate and for those to seriously consider the long term effect of drifting runes from their original format arbitrarily or due to lack of player interaction. This touches more on new mechanics and the age tested mantra all game developers should learn which is "Content is King" meaning more is better than less, with quantity taking a back seat to quality. This discussion started on the basis that the content itself is poor and the quality of it is lack luster rather than taking a look at what content can be created to remove that mindset...always holding to Content is King...what is a dud to you is a treasure to others @Sokolov
In my op I state a suggestion in what I believe is pertinent specifically to @Sokolov because I am discussing relevant content and how he projects his time. I did not like his approach to diminish the rune without making note of why in the original post, rather waited for others to comment. I ultimately saw this a tactic and a ploy to stir conversation and took the reigns in a direction I thought appropriate for the Original Post @Etherielin
That being said I have further supported my comment while there has been no subsequent discussion on Tormented Priest which others are free to do with or without my commenting in between. You @Etherielin trying to remove my opinion is a miss use of moderation and I would like that to be reviewed, I am saving this post in case of removal only because I believe it is supporting the original topic, if you still want to discuss the TOS further with me I am asking you do so in an open discussion somewhere appropriate on the forums. This discussion is not the place for that and I do not find your moderation to be needed so prematurely, ty...copied and saved!
Good god can you please leave and never return
First of all neither Macca nor I are mods, we're just users - otherwise your posts would be moved to a new thread that'd be more clearly referencing to the meat of your posts.
Second of all it isn't the responsibility of moderation team in any environment to encourage you to post your thoughts on the topic when you're not contributing to the topic at hand to begin with. I've read all of your posts in the thread up until my own reply (post #25) and you were >not< talking about Dark Healing or Tormented Priest, but about game systems, models and interfaces.
The conclusion of that is that your posts, until then, were off-topic and as such you're under no right to be pretentious or hurt about this. If you wish to continue this particular topic, consider PMing me or PMing Senshu. Until then you're welcome to leave your further opinion on Tormented Priest and Dark Healing in a manner that is valid to the topic at hand.
Now as for DH and TP:
I believe that Afflict, Tormented and Boost: Skeleton are sandbags on him. I'd most likely move Shrive to his U2, replace Dispelling Blows with Distracting Blows, remove Boost: Skeleton and give him Healing Strike, Dark Healing and Skull of Decay on U1 - this way his U1 would be about healing (Restoration, Mitigation, Prevention of it) and second one would be about disruption (DEF negation/mitigation, Buff Removals, Ability Disable). He'd go down a lot of nora because of this and would most likely need an adjustment, but he wouldn't feel so outdated.
@aseryen I wasn't hurt/angry or whatever, I just felt like what you were saying was better off in its own thread. You clearly have a lot to say, and it seems like a legitimate concern, but in this thread it is very unlikely to get attention beyond being looked at as off-topic from the main thread's topic.
Basically, you were far too general and meta with your op, when what you should have done is stated more directly how you felt about the proposed changes to Tormented Priest. Then, you should have made a separate thread if you feel that Sokolov's current methodology is flawed. Now, I realize I'm just telling you what you should do, but as far as I understand those would be the standard actions to take.
Here' what I would do
U1: leverage lich
U1: surge spirit
U1: amplify fire
U2: boost skeleton
U2: forsaken exploit
U2: fire acolyte
Role: dmg support, core rune
Attack type: physical (spirit benefit) or fire (ud benefit) or magical (skeleton benefit). Careful about fire damage type, because it might cause fire acolyte to be over run compared to exploit since it would give self healing iirc)
What he brings : his main asset is dark healing, and his ability to synergize with lich skeletons.
Currently lich skeletons can't be run, because they don't have a great access to boost, the main Skelton benefit.
U1: Lvg lich is for using with eternal lich, bca and cleric unrest, and toll taker mainly.
U1: Surge spirit is for lich magistrate synergy, revenant synergy, lerper synergy, and lich spirit theme synergy. I don't really consider giving surge spirit as making spirits op, since they already have ranged surge, and 6 other sources.
U1: Amplify fire is for fire lich and ud lich synergy (new rune also).
U2: Boost skeleton helps skeleton be more diverse and not only rely on tomblord decks (aka dark rising decks)
U2: forsaken exploit is for pain curse, revel in misery, and hex decks, something that lich and lich skeletons can do. It is also for witches, which have necromancer for boost. Lastly, it synergies with pure skeletons, who have hexes (bca toll taker, elastic culler) and rabid (bb crawling corpse, **cross bones**, cb would take inhibit tho bc it is too valuable atm even with dark healing because healing is fn op)
U2: fire acolyte is for further fire synergy, since fire amp itself makes u wish u had this ability.
Please tell me why idea is horrible, and why it shouldn't be implemented like you have done every single time.
Sure. Since you ACTUALLY gave a suggestion, I can actually critique it instead of asking you for details over and over while you dodge the questions!
U1 has 3 abilities, none of which synergies with his own race except for Lich, which isn't really a real theme anyway (and probably should be a class, but that's a different discussion).
Surge: Spirit is just weird, you seem to be trying to shoehorn this guy into a Lich or Spirit rune. But ok, let's say we want to turn this guy away from Skeleton theme to Spirits. Your argument that they already have ranged Surge and 6 other sources is technically true on the ranged surge part tho I only see 3 surge: spirits only in total (maybe you meant something else), but like many things in Pox, a single instance of something is different than multiple instances, and combinatorial effects have problems. It's the difference between a max of two 20 DMG dude smacking you from range vs four of them. Every Spirit that gets deployed is now worth more, etc.
Amp: Fire and Fire Acolyte... would just never be taken for a "Fire Lich" deck. There's all of TWO Liches with Attack: Fire, and one of them is not even this guy, which we could add, as you say, but it's still not a deck. If this was a UD rune, then sure, it'd work because they have a Fire theme. As for "Careful about fire damage type" that seems silly. Almost every rune with an Acolyte deals its damage for thematic and synergy reasons already, so self healing shouldn't be an issue (typically, self healing is also usually only really a problem on tanks). Lastly, it's weird you are concerned about this but not ranged Surge because ranged Surge exists but ignore the fact that this also exists.
Acolytes on ranged non-tanks is always weird tho - doesn't mean it can't happen, but functionally it's usually reserved for melee or tanks.
Giving the unit 3 attack types is a bit extreme, especially since the goal is to make this guy into functionally 3 different runes instead of making sure he plays well in the deck he is traditionally designed for.
The guy already has Boost: Skeleton, so I don't understand what you are saying here - either way, I don't intend to remove it. As a Lich/Exotic rune, he should have some things that benefit his specific theme (in this case, Skeletons). It's true though that most Skeleton decks are about Surge: Skeleton on Tomb Lord right now but that's because DMG is important and ranged surge is always powerful (see above comments ranged Surge: Spirit).
Forsaken Exploit is fine, it's an FW thing - that's the whole point of the ability, it synergies with FW's arsenal and is not really for any specific theme.
Anyway, it is somewhat interesting if we actually wanted to make a Lich-based rune so I won't say it's "horrible" besides my gripe with the Fire stuff and your assessment re: Surge Spirit on ranged units. It might be a cool new Spirit Lich rune as well, but I don't think it fits a Skeleton rune.
And I'd probably get rid of the Fire stuff and just make it actually good for a Lich theme - but it's not really a thing and I don't think taking away a Skeleton rune and trying to make it into a Lich or Lich Skeleton rune while still trying to keep it Skeleton based makes sense. I'd also include Eternal Life somewhere (probably just as a "Liches have this" kind of thing).
So I think, if we incorporated some of your lines of thought to make him be able to support a Lich module in a Skeleton deck, I'd probably do something more like:
Stick Eternal Life and Healing Strike on base, this defines him as a Lich and a Priest
U1: gives you several ways to synergy with existing builds, with FE being the "out" if you just something more generically useful, and the other two being more specific.
U2: would be his support option - anti-healing or anti-buffs
Alternatively, I wouldn't mind making him into another Phylactery Bound champion as an option either, maybe in U1, and pull that away from Cleric of Unrest.
Boost: Skeleton is staying. But yes, your U1 direction is kind of what I was thinking.
The other direction I toyed with was keeping Tormented and Afflict and giving him ways to get more HP like Harvest Organs, but I think thematically that fits a tank type better.
Skeletons use enough liches where they would benefit from leverage lich 100%. I actually play skeletons, I should know.
For fire acolyte, it would be for synergy with demon lich and ud fire damage meta. Perhaps fire eater or immune is better, I thought it would be too op th.
Ud have demon lich and vampire skeleton swarm guy, this is why you need to give him fire abilities. I really want to use ud FW skeleton with the new mino but it won't be possible because they have no FW support.
Actually, every FW/ ud has almost no synergy with FW right now, aside maybe the zombie pd voth and stitched.
I was saying 3 attack types - I was saying pick 1 u think is best
Surge spirit won't change anything, sprits are a bad theme right now, having a ranged surged isn't going to change the fact that disbelief and many others can kill all aaryo spirits and lose a spirit player the game [hint they can't be boosted ]], not to mention the classic swarm etc. Spirits are literally my second theme, although I'm not claiming to know as much as I do about skeletons
Dispelling blows is fundamentally garbage. You will always be better off with ennervating collar. Regular dispel is more powerful, and spot dispel can catch enemies who take a risk. At the very least, db is extremely extremely over priced.
I really don't know where you are going trying to define tp as a priest. Like no1 is thinking he is a priest, they think he is not a shaman because he doesn't synergize with brand from soul reaver. There is 0 competitive advantage from being a priest. But fire type theatrically does fit him, since heratic fire etc. Works for me.
OK, obviously you said my near perfect (I'll give you fire eater is better than acolyte) suggestion was garbage as I expected you to.
I've been the most outspoken skeleton player by far, I still play almost exclusively when I do play. You are ignoring me in favor of a KF main lol.
My suggestion isnt trying to make him fit into three themes - it IS making him fit into three themes. Giving him healing strike and dispelling blows is just sandbagging him.
I'm not saying this out of malice or spite, but you should just remove tormented ability and that's it. Your idea is honestly probably going to make him worse than he already is.
Thanks for the response and laughs.
You know, you ask me to discuss your idea, so I do, and you act like a spoiled child because you didn't get your way. I don't know why you think insulting me while saying stuff that is either false or just outright wrong is going to convince me.
It doesn't mean you know what you are talking about just because you are loud. In fact, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you have some fundamental misunderstandings of the way the game works.
I actually said it wasn't terrible, so I don't know what you are going on about suggesting I called it "garbage."
He is literally called a PRIEST and has Class: Priest. I don't know where you are going to try and make him a Lich/Spirit rune when he is a freaking SKELETON.
Sure, removing Tormented and not forcing you to take Afflict is going to make him "worse."
Anyway, this was my "not so nice" post because I am tired of your Bane Shift.
In general, I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to understand where you are coming from because as a prominent member of the community, your opinion does matter to me, but your continued vitriol and inability to engage in discussions is unproductive and makes me want to engage with you less in the future. I don't understand why you don't want to talk about your ideas and instead seem to want me to just lavish you in praise and simply agree with you without discussion.
Anyway, for those who want to continue the discussion on the TP rework, here is what I currently have penciled in:
Feel free to discuss this idea and be sure to let me know if you like @DiCEM0nEY's (or anyone else's) ideas too. Letting me know also helps
I haven't messed with his stats, but moving him away from 3-5 is also an option tho he is getting -4 nora modifier for having it right now.
i like it, but for the sake of liches & phylactery bound i wouldnt mind having an option for an on deploy effect. For his anti-healing flavor would you object to sabotage defile? I understand its currently on a "new" rune & we like to avoid putting new runes signature abilities on old runes but i feel like it would make TP a generally fantastic inclusion.
Would also like an efficiency increase so 4-5 would be good.
Sabotage: Defile is fine for me - series based abilities are generally not intended to be exclusive. What would you want out of U1 for it? I personally don't like Dark Healing + Decay there, but it seemed like based on discussions here some people would like to keep DH as an option.
personally dispelling blows. FW has spot dispel now in enervating collar & has several loss of life options so dispelling blows is less useful here than it would be in other factions. Though Decay is just a better choice than Dark healing so in my opinion it would be fair to remove dark healing
So, because I am a masochist maybe, but I will try again.
Of course, no one will disagree that spot dispel is more powerful but it always costs more AND a rune slot - that's always the trade off you are making when deckbuilding. But it's why I designed the Collar in the first place because I thought FW needed a way to deal with buffed champions more readily.
But why is regular Dispel more powerful on a champion with RNG 3-5 like TP? Both abilities are range 5 in this scenario, both functionally cost the same AP (3). There are trade offs like Dispelling Blows applying without CD on every hit AND allowing you to continue to deal damage, but it is a little bit more restricted in terms of range (3-5 vs 1-5), and it does have problems if the target has defensive resources to prevent attacks. The advantage of having no CD on Blows is that you can't just bait it out like you can with regular Dispel.
That said, I fully agree that 7 nora is too much for Dispelling Blows, and it's actually being reduced to 4 next patch (which matches Dispel).
I also think, like your dislike of the FW bonus, that you have a hard time valuing things that don't you a direct advantage. Something like having a Dispelling Blows (or regular Dispel) already on a champion is a deterrent, much like Cleanse or Shatter is on an opposing champion. I am sure you have experienced many situations in which the opponent had a Cleanse or Shatter champion on the board which restricted your options. Again, no one would ever argue against spot Dispel/Cleanse being better - that's obvious, but it doesn't make these things worthless.
Anyway, I am not in love with Dispelling Blows or anything, but I just don't follow your argument that Regular Dispel is "more powerful" when the trade offs seem fine to me.
Am I missing something? Is there a particular reason I haven't discussed that you feel makes regular Dispel more powerful?
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