Creep salvation?

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    OK, updated with a new idea.... will fill it in more
  2. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    What I like of that version is that is a polished form of the current.
    What I don't like
    it's that's too splashable (the font ignorance portion only matters in some maps), that's why I wanted to limit it to arthropods and mutants.
    Still lacks the workaround around complicated maps (i.e deployment zone creation)
    I like your role for carrion colossus.
  3. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    I like it. Simple and has an anti-snipe.

    But, without any downside to placing a non-creep in these zones, won't the end-game mostly be throwing down revenants, afflicted corpses and bile zombies? oh god, the bile zombies.

    Not sure I can get on board with a bonus that awards speed. Especially one that will be granting 1-3 speed pretty easily. Maybe something like Numerous for creeps as they are all bunching up. They get a big surge bonus and ranged defense, but are horribly positioned for spells.

    If not, I just think the bonus needs something that isn't granting speed, or we'll be seeing pre-nerfs of speed.

    mm. It's a large cost for a bonus that only matters when your shrine zone is huge, and then also grants more shrine zone.

    Could we make this a spell you can cast early that benefits you later?

    Creeping Mist - 30 nora, Target Mutant or Arthropod gains Shrine Defender and Conqueror permanently. If you have 3 or more units with Creep in play your SDZ is increased by 1.

    Needs 3 creeps for the SDZ so it isn't easy to use out of theme. Grants the early bonus of Conqueror and the late game bonus of Shrine Defender.

    I like it. Is it a font contester then? Maybe it could have a reason to destroy it beyond contesting? So they might deal with it before your units.

    Mist of the Dead relic renamed Creeper Colony - 30 nora 25 hp Creep & Propogate: Carrionling. Creep units within 3 spaces gain Swarm: Carrionling & Devourable

    I'd hope that wouldn't be his only goal.

    Maybe remove Creep and Propogate from him and give him Carrion Colony as an ability with the change mentioned above. So he also acts as a walking colony of his own, letting you swarm even more carrionlings and having him able to eat any lesser creeps near him.

    Hope that's good feedback ^^
  4. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    While some of this is interesting, it doesn't seem to reflect what we've discussed.
    Font Ignorance means that once your SDZ overlaps your FDZ's, you'll be at a disadvantage when deploying to them. I don't agree with Font Ignorance being built into the theme.
    One of the problems we've discussed is how slowly the SDZ expands in certain situations. If you change Creep to allow for non-Creep splashes, Creep Master needs the +1 SDZ from kills or your SDZ will have a hard cap on how far it can expand. That cap being the number of Creep/Creep Masters you run.

    I agree with Fikule that Encroached is too much.
    Snuff currently works for Zombies as well so this robs them of a spell. It could be a new spell, though.
    I wouldn't be willing to use a slot for this when I could run more champs with Creep and/or Carrion Colossus.
    As a Titan, it's very important that he not be redesigned specifically to support the Creeper theme. If we're going to change him, make him better at what he already does: Disease DMG + Carrionlings.
  5. WraithxxV

    WraithxxV Active Member

    Well I like the new idea, but now it's too splashable. Possible blockade inspired solution...

    Creep: When this unit is deployed expand your Shrine Deployment Zone by 1 (this does not effect the font bonus). When a non-mutant unit is deployed in your Shrine Deployment zone it is distracted and can not gain AP for 2 turns.

    Creep Master is too much, Encroached is a crazy ability. Have it give Creep and +1 SDZ on a kill and call it a day.

    Creeper Colony is a cool idea but doesn't do too much. Maybe Disease Aura 3, Creep, Propagate Carrionling, 20 hp, 35 nora?
  6. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    @Fikule @Entrepidus @WraithxxV
    Grand feedback...awesome I'll be updating the main post.

    I've added a clause to reduce the shrine zone by 1 for non mutants and increased the growth trigger on deploy/destroy of enemy champ.

    Creep Master changed to Creep Queen (this unit has creep, flying, and Shrine defender)

    Modified the spell creeping mist to something cheaper... I like the conqueror idea. (it wasn't really used in zombies from my knowledge, at the best it was possibly a 1 of but zombies have much better options)

    Removed Encroached... Adding it to the colony instead. That should give it a little more umph.
    WraithxxV likes this.
  7. WraithxxV

    WraithxxV Active Member

    Sounds good! Just a note, you forgot to add the non-mutants clause on Creep, which may confuse new readers.

    Edit: Also, so much Encroached (Colossus, Carrionling, Colony) scares me a little. It's just a very powerful ability (+2-6 damage & +1-3 speed).
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  8. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Thnx for the heads up.. added the non-mutant back in there.

    As for encroached I think it's worth it on the Colossus due to his cost and being the thing that enables some shrine killing pain from the extended creep zone.

    For the Carrionling note that swarm and propagate carrionlings now summon them so Creep and Encroached are only on the common/LE ones you deploy from your hand. The summons will remain exactly the same except have eatable.

    I did remove Encroached from Colony and replaced it with Shrine defender. It allows excess carrionlings to gather round it for extra shrine health.
    WraithxxV likes this.
  9. WraithxxV

    WraithxxV Active Member

    Ah! Hadn't noticed that, good call.

    Just an idea but, what if more creepers had Propagate: Carrionling? It's kind of a cool ability. Maybe Putrid? Example - Putrid Creeper: Attack: Acid, Acid Acolyte, Creep, Propagate Carrionling. Upgrades Scour 1-Acid Aura 2-Acid Aura 3, Tough 1-Tough 2-Tough 3. Same cost as now (really, check the abilities)
  10. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    I'm liking the direction you're headed less and less.

    The primary issue I'm having with your proposed Creeper theme/system is that it's a poorly defined insofar as it does too many different things to be intuitive. In looking at this I'm having trouble answering the question, "What are Creepers?"

    This maintains the original problem: inconsistent SDZ expansion rates. You land early kills to quickly engulf the map, or you have a bad engagement and Creep is useless. Applying Font Ignorance to your deployed champs is something I will never like for this theme.

    +1 SDZ when deployed and restrictions for deployment outside the base SDZ/FDZ is perfect.

    This needs to support SDZ expansion and/or buff nearby Creep/Mutants. I don't want this to be FW's version of [FW] Flight, but Shrine Defender is something worth exploring.

    Creep and +1 SDZ when another Mutant (or whatever race/ability we tie the trigger to) within X kills something satisfies these requirements. If you want to add Shrine Defender, make it only trigger when X+ friendly Mutants/Creeps are in play. This causes the ability to function exactly like Creep until other champions start to enter play.

    This'll keep the nora cost of the ability low at ~10 Nora (4 + 4 + 5; -3 for requiring other champs in play) as opposed to 15 Nora (4 + 5 + 6) and no extra SDZ expansion.

    I like the idea of pulling Carrionlings into the theme. I'd find this appropriate on 2-3 Creepers in total (including Carrion Colossus).

    This is what I was cautioning against. You've changed the FW Titan to fit Creepers, specifically.

    He'd be the fastest Titan via Encroached or contend for the highest damage (Voil Progenitor get's up there) now that he fuels Surge with his own summons. He could rush Shrines for Siege bashing or become one of the best 2x2 killers via Hunter and Surge while ignoring Colossus. It's a dramatic role change.

    Drop Encroached, Siege and Hunter: Giant. Return all of the abilities in Upgrade Path 2 (Assimilate | Dead Eater | Ravenous Torrent) and replace rank 1/2 Disease Aura in Upgrade Path 1. I'd recommend Surge: Mutant and Surge: Zombie.

    I support swapping Swarm: Carrionling for Chuck: Carrionling, though.

    As long as Creep/Encroached aren't on the Summons, this is good.

    I wouldn't change his name, but add Creep (Master) to base and this looks solid.

    Path 1 needs more options (I loathe choosing between ranks) and Conqueror doesn't make sense for its current range. Put Flight on base rather than bundling into Creep Master/Queen and adjust the paths:

    Path 1 = Detection 3 | Escape | [SOMETHING]
    Path 2 = Psychological Warfare | Horrific Aura 2 | Unspeakable
    Reverting to Mutant isn't enough. He used to have 13 DMG, 7 SPD, 3-5 RNG, 45 HP, Attack: Sonic and multiple damage boosts (Surge: Shadows + Tormented). Right now, he's a glorified Nora monkey that provides +1 RNG or +2 DMG.

    He shouldn't fill a role that overlaps with Carrion Colossus (Nora munching) and Phantasmal Creeper. Move him back to 10 DMG, 6 SPD and 40 HP (Attack: Sonic would be lovely, but I'm not greedy) and overhaul his abilities.

    Path 1 = Cloak 1 | Improve Damage | Improve Range
    Path 2 = Protective | Rend 2 | Surge: Shadows
    Base = Attack: Physical (or Sonic) | BOTU | Creep | Domain: Shadows | Fading Light
    This isn't the best champ to pull into Creepers given its original design. If this is going to work, the following seems like a better approach:

    Path 1 = Iron Will | Warding | Propagate Carrionling
    Path 2 = Creep | Swoop | Sting
    Base = Attack: Physical | Latch On | Equip: Mindflayer | Flight | Mindflayer Jumper​

    Brainless is problematic with the addition of Propagate Carrionling (so many wormies!). Assault is problematic because it allows Mindflayer to upgrade faster than normal:

    Equipped champion gains Immunity: Psychic. When an opposing champion within 6 spaces activates a non-basic attack ability, that ability has +3 CD. After this champion has made 4 basic attacks, it also gains Psychic Aura 3.
    I'd rather she had Creep (not Master/Queen) as an upgrade so she's not being forced into the theme. Her default upgrades would be Warding and Swoop to support Latch On and Mindflayer.

    I'd love to see more options for upgrades beyond the one you added, but none immediately come to mind other than Paralyze/Favor which he had before the revamp.

    Give him 6 SPD, revert Shatter to Sword Breaker and replace rank 1/2 Rabid with new options like Multiattack 1.

    Pushed back towards his previous role:

    Path 1 = Absorb | Soul Channeling | Soul Vitality
    Path 2 = Frightful Blows | Soul Feast | Surge: Mutant
    Base = Attack: Psychic | BOTU | Creep | Detection 3 | Soultap​

    Horrifying Delusion was removed from the game, but it provided Frightful Blows and Soul Feast. Splitting them up to replace Sibling (never should have been added) and fill Creep's empty slot once moved to base provides a very dynamic set of options. I removed Flight because it doesn't fit conceptually and the Sprite doesn't fly on the rune, itself. It's a giant eyeball on "walking" tentacles.

    I absolutely oppose Possess in this theme. More reasonable options:

    Path 1 = Adaptation | Psychic Ping 1 | Reflection 3
    Path 2 = Energy Thief | Escape | Reinforcement 1​

    More stale upgrades :*(

    Path 1 = Acid Acolyte | Life Siphon | Revel in Misery
    Path 2 = Desecrated Zone 4 | Hex 3 | Tough 2
    Base = Attack: Acid | Creep Master | Scour 1​

    Creates Healing/Mitigation Paths and better supports his role as a tank in a variety of BGs.

    I'd also replace rank 1/2 Exertion with Blood Frenzy 2 and Manic.

    Conqueror really doesn't belong in Creepers, but the more important point is I'd never use this spell. This is worse than the current version of Snuff and definitely worse than your previous suggestion.

    I don't agree that Snuff isn't used in Zombies as it's a solid spell. For <30N (after refund), you apply +2 DMG to all attacks against everyone within 4 of the target. You might argue that an AoE damage spell is better, but the +2 DMG lasts 6 turns meaning your opponent either commits to battle (after already losing 1-2 champs) or sacrifices the Lumbering victim.

    I've used Mobilization + Snuff for power turns in FF Creepers before the revamp to great effect.

    With so many of your suggestions including Shrine Defender or Encroached, I feel compelled to share some math:

    Encroached = +2 DMG/+1 SPD per opposing font, +2 DEF if more fonts than you

    Shrine Defender = +2 DMG/+2 SPD in SDZ, +8 Shrine HP, Impassioned once Transfigured

    Impassioned = +4 DMG/+2 DEF if Shrine/Avatar <50% HP​

    Going back to Carrion Colossus, if it had Encroached + Shrine Defender it would have 10-12 SPD!

    Put Shrine Defender in Creep Master as outlined above. Never give it through AoE Spells or Relics and use Impassioned or Protective, instead. Creepers are in the faction with Mobilization making anything that grants speed dangerous to use.

    This is similar to the Relic I suggested, so why not merge them?

    Creep + Propogate: Carrionling + Enveloping Mist (preserve part of the replaced Relic)
    Mutants within 6 have Impassioned/Protective (pick one)
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  11. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    "Creep Colony (formerly named Mist of the Dead relic)
    35 nora 21 hp Creep & Propogate: Carrionling. Mutants within 4 spaces of this have Shrine Defender.
    With so many of your suggestions including Shrine Defender or Encroached, I feel compelled to share some math:

    Encroached = +2 DMG/+1 SPD per opposing font, +2 DEF if more fonts than you

    Shrine Defender = +2 DMG/+2 SPD in SDZ, +8 Shrine HP, Impassioned once Transfigured

    Impassioned = +4 DMG/+2 DEF if Shrine/Avatar <50% HP

    Going back to Carrion Colossus, if it had Encroached + Shrine Defender it would have 10-12 SPD!

    Put Shrine Defender in Creep Master as outlined above. Never give it through AoE Spells or Relics and use Impassioned or Protective, instead. Creepers are in the faction with Mobilization making anything that grants speed dangerous to use.

    This is similar to the Relic I suggested, so why not merge them?

    Creep + Propogate: Carrionling + Enveloping Mist (preserve part of the replaced Relic)
    Mutants within 6 have Impassioned/Protective (pick one)"

    this is a good idea
  12. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Thank you @entropy222 for the feedback.

    The main creep ability as proposed expands the zone on deploy and on enemy destruction (ala creep master). Shouldn't this be enough especially with sources of creep that are 30-40 nora range?

    For Font Ignorance I think it is an integral part of the ability to prevent the extended creep zone from being too powerful. It only lasts for 2 turns meaning that you can still capture and contest fonts but you are delayed a turn. This makes it so you have to play a little differently then just Spamming your champs into enemy unoccupied fonts.

    Each creeper should have at least some synergistic ability with either the shrine deployment zone or contesting fonts.
    Since you will be deploying champs into fonts that will always have defenders some abilities like conqueror make sense.

    I'll chew on your feedback for awhile... I agree with the stacking shrine defender/Empassioned to some extent although I'll stress that impassioned only works when you're down fonts making it very conditional. I like how it changes play flow but realize it may be too prevalent right now. I'd probably leave it on colossus and maybe rot maw since you want him back to 6 spd and remove it from the colony.
    Entrepidus likes this.
  13. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    I have this feeling that "entropy222" is going to come here and immediately go "I don't even. . ." as he tries to understand why he got pinged ;P

    But I digress.

    Creep/Creep Master
    I understand what your goals are, but I don't agree that they accomplish them effectively. Unless I missed something, your change to Creep Master actually removes the +1 SDK kills. This means all SDZ expansion happens through the Creep ability (ignoring Spells/Relics), specifically. My point is these should be separated. Creep gives +1 SDZ from deploys while Creep Master gives +1 SDZ from kills to other Mutants around the champion with Creep Master.

    In other words, you can't use a champ with Creep Master to engage in 1v1 Font battles if you want the +1 SDZ from kills as it needs to be near other Mutants. This allows you to remove the -1 SDZ from deaths and deploying non-Mutants as splashing them only slows your rate of expansion rather than directly counter it. As long as you have a few Creep Masters and enough Creeps for landing the killing blows, you can pull in various non-Mutants as desired/needed.

    Font Ignorance
    I agree with what you're trying to accomplish but believe there is a better solution. I'd have no problem allowing it through to test for a patch, but until we have hands-on experience I will continue to think that restricting deployment into SDZ outside of the base SDZ/FDZ is the way to go. Chalk it up to a difference of opinion regarding how to accomplish the same thing. I definitely don't want Creepers deploy-contesting fonts at will.

    Conqueror vs Encroached/Shrine Defender
    That said, I don't agree that Creepers need synergy when it comes to contesting fonts nor should they regularly be deployed into fonts you're trying to contest. My goal is to have Creepers deployed just outside of Fonts before "creeping" up to the battle as opposed to "parachuting" all over the place. I see Creepers as defending a slowly expanding colony/nest with Enroached/Shrine Defender as opposed to aggressively taking new territory with Conqueror.

    They are two conflicting mentalities.

    By the way, thanks the discussion so far! I keep worrying that you'll eventually reply with "ZOMG Y U NEVUR HAPPEH?!" given my excessive criticism, but you haven't. Your patient candor is greatly appreciated. :)
    WraithxxV likes this.
  14. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    this is a wider balance concern, but shouldn't you try to make the soul collection + dead eater combo soul collector exclusive and try to move away improve abilities from the race undead?
  15. WraithxxV

    WraithxxV Active Member

    I think your idea for Creep is fine Yobanchi, and I don't mind Creep Queen being an ability bundle.

    If anything I'm kind of worried that it's too big of a theme rework, and is bound to cause some craziness when you change 10+ runes. I'd say priorities would be race changes, adding Creep Queen where applicable, Carrionling rework, and maybe adding in some Chuck Carrionling and Propagate: Carrionling on some different units.

    Now into some more detail (for those who want to read):
    • When reworking, target #1 should be the accesible runes, since making Eye of Serkan a theme centerpiece limits the bg from being played by anyone new.
    • Rotmaw is fine, just give him Sword Breaker instead of Shatter.
    • Mindthief does need a rework, and yours is good...but spot possess is a bad idea. I'd suggest your rework but Upgrade Path 1 to Defile Corpse, Psychic Aura 2, Adaptation
    • Blood Fiend/Blood Creeper is fine as is + Creep.
    • Putrid Creeper seems well, bland. I've always thought of him as a sort of Creeper boss, maybe give him Propagate Carrionling on base in your suggestion and Vitality in Upgrade Path 1 to make him spit out Carrionlings and boost them?
    • Mindflayer Queen could be fully turned into a Creeper with a name change that at the same time removes 2 unique abilities the game doesn't really need (The Mindflayer stuff).
    • Snuff is fine as is. I used to run it in Creepers and Mutants and really liked it.
    • There are of course, more units to deal with, but I think this would create a good, available core for creeper bgs.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  16. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    @Entrepidus LOL oops sorry for the mistake ping… dang autocorrect X_X.
    No I think all this feedback is great and is defiantly helping shape this up.

    I'm a little confused on your review of the creep ability though.
    There's two ways it expands the zone. 1) On deploy of the unit 2) when the creep unit destroys an enemy champion
    The only time it reduces it is when a non-mutant is deployed.

    Is it how the zone is decreased?

    What if it was something like:
    Increase the zone by 1 when this unit is deployed or destroys an enemy champ.
    Decrease the zone when a non-mutant is deployed and that champ gains font ignorance permanently.

    This allows creeps to trigger on deploy AND kills, allows splashes but severely penalizes their deployment use.
    The only thing I have concerning this change is that it still allows mutants to be deployed within enemy fonts.

    If this is the case though I would remove all font contesting synergy as they can now adequately contest on deploy.

    What are your/everyones thoughts on this?

    As for snuff I how would you like if it was a dual spell?
    Target champion gains Liability and lumbering. If that unit is a mutant it instead gains shrine defender and your zone is increased by 1. 30 nora remove the refund as those clauses are seeing more removal.
    Fikule likes this.
  17. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    #1: Creep/Creep Master/Ravenous Torrent
    Creep: When this unit is deployed or destroys an enemy champion expand your Shrine Deployment Zone by 1 (this does not effect the font bonus). When a friendly unit is deployed at your Shrine Deployment zone it gains Font Ignorance for two turns and if it was a non-mutant reduce your Shrine Zone by 1.
    I think a lot of people are mistaking Font Ignorance for Font Aversion. That said, maybe it should last for 1 turn. This would mean that if the font remains free throughout the enemy turn, you'll own/contest it at the start of your next turn. (unless that's what it already does at 2 turns?)

    Creep Queen (formerly Creep Master): This unit has flying, creep, and shrine defender.
    This doesn't have much synergy with Creep units any more other than benefiting from the SDZ they create.

    Chuck Carrionling (from Ravenous Torrent): This Champion makes a ranged physical attack against target champion within 2-5 spaces. A summoned Carrionling is deployed adjacent to the target if it is successfully damaged.
    Much better. Does what it was always meant to do, but better. A bug fix and general improvement :)

    #2: Champs
    Carrion Creeper (formerly Carrion Colossus)- Race: Mutant Class: Brute
    Path 1 (Hunter: Giant, Siege, Disease Aura 3)
    Path 2 (Damage Sheild Disease 3, Surge: Mutant, Encroached)

    Base: Death Spawn Carrionling, Propagate Carrionling, Chuck: Carrionling, Creep, Attack: Physical, Titan
    I also can't agree with Encroached. Apart from it costing a whopping 14 Nora, I get the impression you aren't quite aware of it's function.
    You said
    "I agree with the stacking shrine defender/Empassioned to some extent although I'll stress that impassioned only works when you're down fonts making it very conditional."
    Since Impassioned has nothing to do with fonts I assume you meant Encroached. Just making sure you know, it is +1 Speed and +2 damage for ANY fonts they have, right? You don't need less fonts than them to activate it.
    Also, in what situation you do see taking a Melee only damage shield over Surge: Mutant or Encroached? Surge: Mutant is only 1 more nora, and the guy basically pukes mutants. Another option might be better. Frightful Aura 3 would be a nice option for non-creep use.

    Carrionling LE/Common -Race: mutant
    Path 1 (creep)
    Path 2 (Encroached)
    Base: Eatable, Swarm: Carrionling, Surge: Mutant, Disease Eater, attack: acid

    I honestly can't say Encroached would be OP on this guy, so I don't see any problems, except that he'd be 49 nora for a 5hp unit with these abilities. Which is a bit nuts. Would have to have a manual cost adjustment to account for him dying in one hit.

    Vampiric Creeper (formerly Bloodworm)- Race: Mutant Vampyre Undead
    Path 1 (Bleed, Life Siphon, Consume)
    Path 2 (Bloodlust, Multi attack, Surge: Mutant)
    Base: Bind, Attack Physical, Boon of the Undead

    Looks Good. But no Creep?

    Blinking Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Path 1 (Damage Shield psychic 1, 2, 3)
    Path 2 (Conqueror, Territorial, Frightening blows)
    Base: Attack: Psychic, Creep Queen, Petrifying Gaze
    Range 1-2

    So long as he goes down in cost a ton and Creep Queen is looked at, he seems good.

    #3: Champs
    Dusk Creeper- Race: Mutant Undead
    Rest keep same


    Mindflayer Queen- Race: Mutant
    Path 1 (Decapitating Blow, Swoop, Sting)

    Path 2 (Chuck:Carrionling, Assault, Propagate Carrionling)
    Base: Creep Queen, Attack Physical, Brainless, Equip: Mindflayer, Mindflayer jumper

    I like it. She may cost a ton though :p

    Phantasmal Creeper - Race: Mutant Spirit Undead
    Path 2 ( Nora Leech , favor, Grant: Magical Aura)
    Base: Attack Magic, Ethereal, Creep, Portal
    Would also reduce his damage to 0 if he doesn't have Curse. But, who is ever going to pick Nora Leech or Favor over Grant: Magical Aura? The other two have no active utility. Defender 3 & Sustain: Defile Corpse would be nice. Offer him defense boost, a death effect negation, or pure damage.
    Would need to be sure Defile Corpse wouldn't prevent your own swarming.

    Rotmaw Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Path 2 (Encroached, Sword breaker, Shred defense)
    rest the same

    Encrooooached. It might be doable if it was on base and he started with 4 speed? That way he's average out at 6 speed and 14 damage in most games.
    Also Sword Breaker has much less utility than Shatter. I was going to say it isn't worth the cheaper cost, then saw it actually costs 4 more...
    Flanking would be a nice easy option for him.

    #4: Champs
    Eye Of Serkan - Race: Undead Mutant
    Path 1 (Soul Vitality, Vivify, Sibling)
    Path 2 (Leverage Lich, Soul Tap, Detection 3)
    Base: Attack: Psychic, Creep Queen, Boon of the undead

    I wouldn't mind seeing Violent instead of Sibling. Looks ok.

    Mindthief Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Path 1 (Possess 1, 2, 3)
    Path 2 (Reinforcement 1 , 2)
    Base: Creep, Paralyze, Still life, Attack: Psychic

    He sort of replaces the Disturbed Spirit here. Stealthed Possession. He can even deploy, possess 3 and stealth at the end of the turn. That would be insanely powerful and very nerfed :p
    I'd say give him Possess 1 for a deploy possession and two other options. Maybe remove Paralyze and give him Possess 1 and Knockout in his upgrades. Then he has a spot control on-deploy option or long term control that isn't on-deploy.

    Putrid Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Path 1 (Acid Aura 1 , 2 ,3)
    Path 2 (Tough 1, 2 , 3)
    Base: Attack Acid, Creep, Acid Acolyte

    Maybe just move Tough 3 to base and give him Acid Acolyte and Revel in Misery as upgrade #2 options? Lets him be run in and out of creeps. An Acid Damage Shield would be nice in his case, even just rank 1, to trigger healing.

    Blood Creeper (formerly Blood Fiend) - Race: Mutant Vampyre Undead
    add Creep Base

    #5: The Support
    Creeping Mist (formerly named Snuff spell)
    30 nora Target champion gains Conqueror. If that unit is a mutant expand your shrine deployment zone by 1.
    Think it should limit the target's race. Spot conqueror on anyone could be nasty. Could still let this be units in zombies?
    30 nora - Target Mutant or Zombie gains Conqueror. If the unit is a Mutant, your Shrine Deployment Zone is increased by 1. If the target is a Zombie, ground within 4 spaces becomes Desecrated Ground for 4 turns.

    Creep Colony (formerly named Mist of the Dead relic)
    35 nora 21 hp Creep & Propogate: Carrionling. Mutants within 5 spaces of this have Shrine link.
    I like shrine link. A more offensive option might be "Spaces within 4 spaces of this relic are Locust Swarm"
  18. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    reading, so much, wow.
  19. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Thank you for the feedback. Later today after bowling/dinner I'll be wrapping it up for the final suggestion.
    I still have some reading to do on the feedback but from just the 10min break i have I see that the following still needs some tweaking.

    Some champs need adjustments…I think the only one that needs to be totally reworked is that mind flayer queen as long as I hear no objections to loosing that equip on deploy and transfer.

    Creep queen - Shrine defender is very strong and I like it's interaction with the shrine deployment zone giving them end game units from the growth. If this is still too crazy then perhaps other suggestions?

    Possible ideas for Creep Master/Creep Qeen/Rename?
    A) This unit has creep. Double all Shrine zone increases and reductions. (this does not stack)

    B) Creep Colony? This unit has creep, Propogate Carrionling, and death spawn carrionling.

    C) Same - the current Creep Queen suggestion above.

    I think the main creep ability is in a good place right now and we can see how font ignorance goes. I did forgot about font aversion which prevents from deployment directly in a font.
    That could potentially work as a plan b in another follow up teak if font ignorance proves too detrimental.

    The more feedback the merrier. Please note everyone that these are suggestions and may not result in exact changes. It may take some additional tweaking in later patches.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  20. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    This post has made it to 5 pages, and the post has some long responses. I would love to see a warp up post the summarizes the ideas and conclusions you guys reached. (I only read page one and 5 <--lazy bones)

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