Creep salvation?

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Hmm, how about this way then?

    Creep Master
    When this champion destroys an opposing champion with a basic attack, your shrine deployment zone increases by 1. This effect does not increase the size of the Shrine bonus. If there are 4 or more units with Creep in play, this unit gains Colonize.

    If this unit is within a font zone you control, that font becomes Colonized (effect) while under your control. This ability cannot be used if a font you control is already Colonized.

    This font has no deployment zone and your Shrine deployment zone is increased by 3. This font generates 2 Extra Nora per turn for each Creep in play. When this effect is applied, 4 Creep Burrow relics are placed 3 spaces from the font under your control with 5 Health and Font Defender and Creep Portal (Adjacent friendly units with Creep gain Portal).

    When this unit is deployed from your runedock at a shrine your shrine deployment zone is increased by 1 square. When this unit dies, you shrine deployment zone is decreased by 1 square.

    Creeps still do the same, but it is more about the Colony they create. Creeps can use it to portal (travel anywhere in your shrine or font zones) and are used to determine the extra nora you generate.

    Might have a bit much on colonize ^^

    But you could just say it places 4 creep burrows and let the burrow show what it does.

    I also considered making it grant Movivate: Creep instead of Creep Portal, to encourage the enemy to destroy the burrows as a counter and to encourage the player to not colonize a central font.
  2. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Oh Fikule! reading you just gave me an interesting idea while I was reading your new colonize adjustment.

    Ok so how does this sound.

    Creep: This unit has font ignorance and generates 5 nora while occupying a wild font zone. When this unit is deployed increase your SDZ by 1 (this does not effect shrine bonus).

    Creep Master: When a friendly Arthropod Within 4 spaces of this unit is destroyed increase your SDZ by 1 and this unit gains portal for 4 turns.
    Nite2kill likes this.
  3. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    I like the Creep idea. Questions:

    1. Would it generate 5 nora when capping a font? I am guessing not? I like the idea of it being a contesting mechanic.

    2. Would it be 5 nora per Creep contesting a font? If so, should it have a cap on how many times it can occur on your turn?

    It might be nice if it was a global effect from creep, like "If a creep is contesting a font at the start of your turn, you gain 6 nora +2 for each other Creep unit in play."
    That way a single creep in a BG can generate a nice nora boost, but a full theme will stack it up. That way it encourages using the odd creep outside of the theme.

    As for Creep Master, I like the idea of Portal, but it might be nice if he could somehow grant portal to Creeps. Like he is directing the battle and sending off the troops ^^
  4. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    This sounds interesting and just might work - BUT it must should be exclusive to FW no split FF builds only - I say this due to the other factions having more champs, spells and such - Creepers were designed for FW and if its gonna stay a theme lets keep it with FW
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  5. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Font ignorance - this unit can't capture or contest fonts. With the unit generating 5 nora for wild fonts it basically means that creeps want to keep fonts wild and uncaptured to harvest/colonize it.

    The nora may be adjusted but as it is they need 3 champs in the font to at least break a little past even on the missing nora from capturing the font.

    Synergy abilities regarding this would be:
    Shrine Defender
  6. Centuros

    Centuros Active Member

    But this would REQUIRE you to run out-of-theme champions, or a lot of relics, otherwise it would be very easy for opponents to just cap the font out from under you, and you wouldn't be able to do anything to their fonts.
    GabrielQ likes this.
  7. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    Guys, I've made a suggestion on page 3 that seems to have been completely ignored. I would appreciate some sort of feedback, as I currently think it has potential, fits the theme and can be worked into something nice.

    GabrielQ likes this.
  8. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    hey, really nice.
  9. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!


    EDIT: Oh, of course, it's also a nice thing that my suggestion has a lot of places where it can be adjusted: how much the deploy zone lasts, how far away it can be created, how disabled a Creep Master would be/wouldn't be and the exact amount of Loss of Life for moving before the duration expires.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  10. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    So, as mentioned, with them having ignorance, how do they keep a font from being captured?

    At 5 Nora per unit, per font, would you ever reach the same Nora generation as a normal bg? You can't leave 3 units in every font zone :(

    I was thinking more that they could capture fonts, but they'd gain the extra Nora when contesting.

    Maybe another bit could be a global from creep master to make capping fonts have more of a point, like "your shrine deployment zone is increased by 2 for each font you control"

    I think if the aim was to not capture any fonts, they'd need a better way to gain Nora from them without having to leave 3 units in each and using non-creeps to contest captured fonts.

    (Not going in-depth. On my phone ^^)
  11. WraithxxV

    WraithxxV Active Member

    Well, back in the day, I played both Mutants and Creepers quite a bit, so lets see if I can suggest something decent.

    This is a good idea!

    Just my take on your idea Sirius
    • Creep Master: 4 AP, CD: 4, Until it moves, this champions becomes Pacified and spaces adjacent to it become a deployment zone. Only Mutants may be deployed in this deployment zone.
    • Creep: When this champion is deployed from your runedock, all Creep Master deployment zones you control are increased by 1 square.
    I have no idea if this would be code-able but the idea is that you set a Creep Master champ somewhere on the map, and after that each Creep you deploy gives you a larger deployment zone from that Creep Master, eventually giving you a font-sized deployment zone wherever you want. The downside is you lose a champ, and moving and reactivating the ability would reset the deployment zone to 1. It is limited to Mutants to avoid meta abuse (and because all Creepers should get Race: Mutant back...for the love of everything sacred).
  12. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I'll be updating and cleaning the main post later today after work.
    I feel that we have a good start on some interesting ways to tweak and/or rework the main abilities.
    I'll also be clarifying what the current problems with creep and using the zone is.

    I'm chewing on the deployment zone creation around creeps in the field.
    At work so only short responses for now ^_^.
  13. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    The reason I added the "within x spaces of another deployment zone" clause was precisely so it doesn't cause trouble by allowing any of your Creep Master units to become a Skywing Beacon. Yes, you do "lose" a champion for the duration, but frankly, this seems much harder to balance and I really don't want the reworked Creep theme to cause constant rebalancing issues and require another rework, either by being too strong or too weak.

    Also, I would argue that the "within x spaces of another deployment zone" clause fits the theme much better because (as far as I understand) they would not trying to be agressive or in the opponent's face with their deploys, but rather expand more and more across the map, 'subtly' colonizing it with extended deployment zones and Psychic Pings and all sorts of abilities to cover their territory with. Unlike the Skywings with their Skywing Beacon, they wouldn't be very well equiped for being in the opponent's face early on. So it seems like a better idea to just make the Creep Master deploy zones an extension of the other deploy zones and focus on that.

    Oh, and a cute little thing: my suggestion, you might notice, has the advantage that it doesn't explicitly retrict you to using only Creeps/Mutants/Arthros/whatever. The way I made/worded it, you can use whatever you want. BUT it's not really that good without running many Creeps. While this does mostly restrict you to playing in-theme champions, it has the advantage of allowing you to use other champions that may offer valuable tools (but the inclusion of other champions must be well thought out, because they don't directly help the Creep ability). I would argue that this is a more elegant way to go about it than directly saying you can only use Mutants. I personally dislike building a "fence" around a theme and isolating it from the rest of the runes. I would much rather make it advantageous to run theme champions with each other, but leave possibilities open for a few 'wild' inclusions that work with the theme due to some interesting synergy.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  14. WraithxxV

    WraithxxV Active Member

    Yeah, I get that, but in my form it would be meta abusable so I limited it. I actually really like your idea, the only thing I'm not huge on is it seemed slowish to get going (which is probably flavorful) but I always played Creeps as a fast bg, so I gave it my own twist. All in all, I was just suggesting something similar but slightly different.
  15. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    We could be clever about it though ;). We can make the Creep theme be available in TWO factions. The FF FW Creeps would work as I described, especially because it makes sense for FW. But you could make either UD or SL have a few Creeps that give a twist to the whole theme. So by splitting with that faction, you could turn them into a more agressive version, but you would be giving up some of the territorial power you'd normally get in FF FW. I even partially anticipated this and I was hoping someone would notice it:
    ^The above ability works from Skywing Beacon deployment zones too. It could very well be the start of the aforementioned twist, if you consolidate Creeps as Mutants. This would attempt to regear the split version of Creeps as a more forward, mid game type of deck. (I welcome suggestions in this direction, I'm currently still thinking :D.)
    However, I have 2 concerns with this:
    1) I'm not sure whether this would work. Making a few Creeps/Mutants in another faction seems like the best way to go about it, but depending on how much it tries to change the overall style, it could just be a failed experiment. Not sure.
    2) This requires some very good balancing and redesigning. I really don't like saying this, but I'm afraid that the devs may not be up for the task. I really hope they are though.
    WraithxxV likes this.
  16. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Hmm...basically skywing beacon like Sirius mentions...
  17. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    Lots discussed since my last post, so forgive me if I missed something.

    We're getting ahead of ourselves with overly complex solutions to the Creeper problem. Anything that adds multiple new abilities in an effort to make Creepers viable is a step backwards in my book. I'd want 1-2 thematic abilities at most and/or changes to existing abilities that support the theme (like splitting Creep and Crawl up).


    I've considered this, but restrictions would need to be applied to prevent the problems mentioned throughout the thread. I recommend this instead:

    Champions deployed outside of your base Shrine/Font Deployment Zone(s) cannot be within X of an opposing champion.​
    Champions deployed outside of your base Shrine/Font Deployment Zone(s) must be within X of a friendly champion.​
    I see Creepers as FW's take on cockroaches (which could be argued are undead). They should be sturdier on average with (below) average damage such that they live long enough to mass up for abilities like Surge (was their main source of damage). Additionally, an expanding SDZ can be compared to building a nest (as others mentioned) that enables them to reinforce engagements as needed.

    Their end game is to actually reach the end game.
    I don't agree with this. It changes the dynamic of all other Arthropods for the specific purpose of expanding the Creeper theme. I also don't think webs should be a core part of Creepers.
    As others have mentioned, Font Ignorance would ruin Creepers. Also, I don't think Creepers should have Portal beyond Phantasmal Creeper.



    I don't agree with the idea of creating deployment squares at the location of kills. This feels too much like Swarm which encroaches on the Zombie theme. I'd elaborate, but I don't want to be redundant. The others have done a suitable job of representing the points I would make. I do, however, agree with you that preserving the SDZ expansion mechanic should be a primary focus for this discussion.


    This seems like an unnecessarily restrictive mentality. Many factions have themes that are largely self-contained with only a few champions being readily compatible out of theme. We shouldn't approach Creepers with the goal of benefiting everything else in FW. Most racials are exclusively beneficial for that race on purpose.

    FW is not a race, it's a faction. As such, it should only be used to determine the types of abilities/damage Creepers have (beyond their racials) and their overall flavor. For example, Putrid Creeper has Revel in Misery (25% heal if target is Cursed/Hexed/Diseased) and Bloodworm has Bleed/Bloodlust. Mutant cockroaches are a perfect fit for the faction emphasizing death and decay. I do agree that Creepers need to be capable of standing on their own as a FF theme, though.

    My goals for splitting up Creep and Crawl are to make Creep/Creep Master viable as FF FW and Crawl/Spider Frenzy viable as FF UD with a clear bridge for unifying the two, if desired. It's similar to Plants in KF/FS or Elves in KF/UD.


    There is way too much going on here for this to be an intuitive or approachable set of mechanics for Creepers. I like the nesting mentality of Colonized, but I don't feel the need to make it an official ability with several sub-abilities, mechanics and relics. I believe my suggestion implies a nesting mentality without all the overhead.

    I like yobanchi's idea of giving (some) Creepers Shrine Defender, but I don't support giving all creepers Portal (as mentioned above).


    Creepers shouldn't be an overly aggressive theme that deploys directly to wherever your champions are regardless of your SDZ's size. To me, Creepers should be somewhat defensive in that they aim to "take and hold" fonts as they push their SDZ forward with them. As mentioned above, I see them as a "slow and steady" theme that emphasizes surviving to the end rather than immediately overwhelming opponents.

    They slowly "creep" towards the opponents shrine rather than gallop.

    Creating a Relic with Font Aversion (destroyed if played in a Font) that creates SDZ around it each turn (and buffs nearby Creepers?) like a terrain generator is something worth considering, though.


    Again, I don't agree with giving Creepers mobile deployment zones. It doesn't align with what it means to "creep."
  18. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    To summarize my thoughts and pull together pieces of your feedback and ideas, this is what I see as the most intuitive set of changes:

    All Creepers become Mutant/Arthropod with additional races assigned individually.

    +1 Shrine Deployment Zone when deployed
    Gains Still Life while 4+ friendly Arthropods are in play

    Creep Master: (rename to Hivemind?)
    While in play, +1 SDZ when a friendly Arthropod within 5 squares destroys an opposing champion with a basic attack

    (Champions deployed outside of your base Shrine/Font Deployment Zone(s) cannot be within X of an opposing champion.)
    (Champions deployed outside of your base Shrine/Font Deployment Zone(s) must be within X of a friendly champion.)

    (-1 SDZ at the end of each turn if you don't have a friendly champ with Creep/Creep Master)
    (FW anti-magic bonus only applies to base Shrine/Font zones or +1 with Annex)

    [RELIC] Creeper Mound [40/45N]:
    Font Aversion (destroyed if placed in a Font Deployment Zone)
    Creep Generator (at the end of your turn, +1 SDZ originating from this Relic)
    Friendly champions deployed within 4 squares gain Reinforcement 1
    Arthropods within 8 spaces gain Protective

    Seems like the best way to implement a "spot deployment" mechanic without getting out of control. Begins as a semi-defensive buff stick but that grows to support mid/late-game deployment. As a Relic, it's easier to deal with than a mobile champion that can create SDZ/Portal squares.

    I'm surprised more comments weren't made about incorporating Still Life into Creep as it supports a defensive posture while you're expanding your SDZ. I like the idea of preventing your SDZ from shrinking given the slower expansion rate so long as one of the deployment restrictions is used.


    (Intended to prevent the redundancy of "Creep" and "Creep and Crawl" and provide inherent synergy. If they aren't used, change Arthropod to Mutant in the Creeper abilities)

    This unit has Climb
    Gains Mobility while 4+ friendly Arthropods are in play

    Spider Frenzy:
    While in play, other friendly Arthropods within 5 squares gain an additional rank of Multiattack (or Clear)

    [SPELL] Creepy Crawlies: (similar to Cultural Contamination)
    All friendly Arthropods with Creep gain Crawl
    All friendly Arthropods with Crawl gain Creep

    I know Multiattack ranks is unpopular, but this is situationally weaker than the existing Creep and Crawl that gives one rank of Multiattack globally once 4 Arthropods are down. There is only one champion with Spider Frenzy (for now) meaning 2 ranks at most and only to nearby champions. If you still don't like it, Clear is an alternative ability that functions as pseudo AP gen by preventing terrain from slowing down your critters.
  19. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Main Post is updated with some refined ideas.

    @Entrepidus Nice long post… I'll be rereading this later today.

    So far feedback that I've been getting from non-FWers is that the current theme could possibly just need a tweak to how it grows shrine zone and then inject a ton of synergy to the champs and see how that goes before diving into a larger rework. For instance the main issues with creeps being that it's A) extremely hard and slow to grow the zone with all the decrease clauses and B) has no synergy with the current champs as they are designed.

    For example creep: This unit expands the zone by 1 when destroyed/deployed. When you deploy a non-(race) decrease the zone by 1.
    Creep Master: All (race) gain Shrine defender.
    Sirius and WraithxxV like this.
  20. Centuros

    Centuros Active Member

    But Entrepidus, Gedden thinks FW is a race. Specifically: undead (except for the corrupt humans, but they all become undead sooner or later anyway).

Share This Page