Creep salvation?

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by yobanchi, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I'd like to focus some thoughts on suggestions/brainstorming ideas on how to salvage the creep theme.
    The main issues with the Creep/Creep Master Theme:
    a) The Shrine Deployment Zone (SDZ) growth is currently easier to destroy then grow leaving it difficult to actually have an impact on play and leaving it boring/frustrating to play as you try to grow the zone.

    b) Creep is tied to champs with the creep ability meaning battle group creation for the theme is extremely restricted or at least appears very much so. Currently it is relegated to 7 champs. For every champ without creep you tip the scales into a net loss for the SDZ growth.

    c) The current set of champs with creep/master do not have synergetic abilities based on the zone or helping increase the zone growth. For example 2 out of the 7 creeps don't even have basic attacks meaning they can't trigger that net growth.

    d) Transfiguration destroys the extended creep zone to 0. It is possible to increase the zone when in avatar mode by netting a kill with creep/master. However with deployment you'll down nora every turn from there on in.

    e) There is no grand end game. The growth of the SDZ basically results in you deploying and sniping enemy unguarded fonts and avoiding all direct contact with enemy champs since they pretty much don't synergize with each other very much.

    Creep in its current theme results in attrition style matches where your goal is to nora attrition your enemy by growing the zone and contesting enemy fonts. Saving the theme will require rethinking how and why creeps need to be played and for it to be interesting.

    Current Proposal:
    #1: Creep/Creep Master/Ravenous Torrent
    When this unit is deployed or destroys an enemy champion expand your Shrine Deployment Zone by 1 (this does not effect the font bonus).
    When a friendly unit is deployed at your Shrine Deployment zone it gains Font Ignorance for two turns and if it was a non-mutant reduce your Shrine Zone by 1 to a minimum of 3.

    Creep Master:
    This unit has creep. All mutants within your Shrine Deployment Zone have Siege and +2 def.

    Ravenous Torrent renamed Chuck: Carrionling: This Champion makes a ranged physical attack against target champion within 2-5 spaces. A summoned Carrionling is deployed adjacent to the target if it is successfully damaged.

    #2: Champs - small adjustments (mostly race and creep adds)
    Blood Fiend renamed Creeping Gore - Race: Mutant Vampyre Undead
    add Creep Base

    Dusk Creeper Race: Undead Mutant

    Rotmaw Creeper - add Boon of the Undead Base

    Mindthief Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Replace Adaptation with Attack: psychic

    Polluted Martyr - Race: Undead Dragon Mutant

    BoneShredder - Race: Undead Mutant Skeleton
    Add Creep base

    Blinking Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Remove Creep from base (it has creep master)

    #3: Champs

    Bloodworm renamed Blood Creeper - Race: Undead Vampyre Mutant
    Add Surge Mutant to Path 1
    Replace Aggressive with Bind in path 2
    Add Creep Base

    Phantasmal Creeper - Race: Mutant

    Path 2 (Encroached, Shrine Defender, Nora Leech)
    Add Attack Magic base

    #4: Champs

    Putrid Creeper - Race: Mutant
    Path 1 (Damage Shield Acid 1, 2, 3)
    Path 2 (Tough 1, 2 , 3)
    Base: Attack Acid, Creep Master, Acid Acolyte

    Eye Of Serkan - Race: Undead Mutant
    Path 1 (Soul Vitality, Soul Channeling, Sibling)
    Path 2 (Frightful Blows, Soul Feast, Surge Mutant)
    Base: Attack: Psychic, Creep Master, Boon of the undead, Detection 3

    Creeper Queen- Race: Mutant

    Path 1 (Decapitating Blow, Swoop, Sting)
    Path 2 (Chuck:Carrionling, Provision, Propagate: Carrionling)
    Base: Attack Physical, Death Spawn: Carrionling, Flight, Creep

    #5: Champs

    Carrion Colossus renamed Carrion Creeper- Race: Mutant Class: Brute
    Path 1 (Disease Aura 3, Surge: Mutant, Hunter: Giant)
    Path 2 (Vivify, Reinforce, Swarm: Carrionling)
    Base: Death Spawn Carrionling, Propagate Carrionling, Chuck: Carrionling, Creep, Attack: Physical, Titan

    Carrionling LE/Common -Race: mutant
    Path 1 (creep)
    Path 2 (Encroached)
    Base: Eatable, Swarm: Carrionling, Surge: Mutant, Disease Eater, attack: acid
    (please note that summoned creeps should not have any upgrades)

    Mist of the Dead renamed Creeper Colony
    35 nora 21 hp Creep & Propogate: Carrionling. Mutants within 5 spaces of this have Shrine link.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
    Woffleet likes this.
  2. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    And I super swear I'll get in there and update my thread tomorrow (on my phone atm) :p
    weekend! :)
  3. Shimaru

    Shimaru Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Without attempting to be rude or something, can I ask how popular is this theme? I see threads talking now and then about it, but don't remember then going for too long, or getting too many replies.

    Now, I ask this for a simple reason: what exactly people enjoy playing about the creep theme? What aspect of the bg they actually enjoy? I think knowing first what the theme is about and what the fans expect from it should be the first step toward actually making it a runnable theme.
    XFurionsX likes this.
  4. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    First things first:
    race of creepers
    right now, there are undead arthropods and undead mutants.
    I would like mutant arthropods (I don't know or care if it's biologically correct)
    and make mutants and arthropods not to reduce the shrine deployment zone.
    Assuming we are going to keep that style of ability.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
  5. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    I support making the standard Creeper race Mutant Arthropods (Undead only where it makes sense like Carrion/Bloodworm), but I don't think pulling other Arthropods and Undead into the Creep ability is the way to go.
  6. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    I meant mutants of course, corrected now.
  7. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Right now creepers are all over the place in regards to race and function. A lot of runes also lost creep.

    I believe mutants in general are being reduced as a race ( I don't know why).

    All your points are very good questions... Is this theme worthy of being focused on or should it just remain an odd ability on a few champs?

    What if Creep was simply removed altogether leaving only creep master on a few select champs?

    IMHO creepers are (or I guess where since they really aren't one anymore) probably the least favorite theme in FW.
  8. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Creepers in the first place should have their function considered. Is it efficient enough that they merely move the shrine deployment zone up by one square? In a meta build with dusk creepers, it sometimes comes in handy but never makes/breaks a game.

    There are a couple ideas that come to mind in terms of a different function. I'm just playing around here:
    ~ Creep - For every friendly mutant/arthropod in play, this champion gets +1 range
    ~ Creep - While more than 3 mutants are in play, this champion gets scour 2. If 5 or more are in play, this champion gets sunder.
    ~ Creep - While at least 3 friendly mutants are in play this champion gets Portal. While 5 or more mutants are in play, this champion gets Portal: Creep
    ~ Portal: Creep - This champion may relocate to any space adjacent to friendly champion in play with the ability: Creep (costs 4 ap) (cd 1)

    The portal concept I particularly like because it leaves room for the shoebox phantasmal creeper to lose portal, and gain Grant: Magic Aura like it used to have.
  9. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Ok, my own personal view atm is:

    Creeps should have certain aspects as to what they are. If they are going to be a theme we need to identify what they do. I think splitting them between Mutants and Arthropods is fine as this lets us also split that purpose slightly for utility. So I'll say what I think they should be in terms of Creeps, Mutants, Arthropods and Creep Masters.

    Proposed Theme Aspects
    Mutant Creeps
    Corrosion - They should have an emphasis on scouring, lowering defense and destroying equipment and anything else linked to corrosion should be acceptable.
    Adaptation - They should gain stats or abilities through effects. As an example, the current mutant creeps have Sibling, Surge: Mutant, Soul Vitality and Adaptive.

    Arthropod Creeps
    Predators - They should have a focus on hamstringing, ensnaring and feeding on their foes or even allies. I wont put up specific examples because I don't think this is where this side of the theme is right now.
    Stealth & Evasion - They should be weaker and make up for it by having ways to avoid taking damage.

    They should be multi-species hive mind. Creeps naturally adapt to be part of the strongest mind available, providing benefits to the mastermind and becoming more intelligent/adaptive as a result.

    Creep Masters
    These are units that specialize in masterminding Creeps and gain more benefits than others from utilizing them.

    Proposed Patch Notes
    [Text in square brackets summarizes the changes for the champion or ability it describes]

    [Changed to a very non-complex ability that allows creep units to be used in any BG without sandbagging. Units with this ability will NOT be Undead. The ability will grant the unit's race to other units near it]
    - Cost changed to 2 from 4
    - The nearest friendly unit that does not share a race with this one gains this unit's race.

    Creep Master
    [This is now the main theme ability of Creeps. The ability is maximized by alternating the abilities gained to have two additional abilities at once. This ability grants an ability reliably and the abilities you can gain are controlled through Creep.]
    - Cost changed to 6 from 4
    - At the end of your turns, this unit gains the first selected upgrade of the nearest friendly champion with Creep within 6 spaces for 4 turns.

    Eye of Serkan
    [As he cannot gain Soul Feast any more I feel we can remove this synergy and give him better adaptations and racial synergy. Pawn also works towards balancing his terrible health]
    - Base Abilities are now Attack: Psychic, Creep, Detection 2, Pawn
    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Illuminate (default), Precision
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Protective (default), Surge: Mutant
    - Race changed to Mutant from Mutant, Undead
    - Cost changed to 79 from 85

    Mindthief Creeper
    [This change gives the Mindthief Creeper utility he can use while stealthed. His utility can also be obtained by a Creep Master]
    - Race changed to Mutant, Arthropod from Mutant, Undead
    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Restraining Aura (default), Dampen
    - Cost changed to 63 from 61

    Putrid Creeper
    [One of the two creepers with both Creep and Creep Master. Simply swapped his upgrades so Tough can be taken by a Master]
    - Race changed to Mutant from Mutant, Undead
    - Upgrade Path 1 and Upgrade Path 2 have been swapped around.

    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Tough 1/2/3
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Desecrated Zone 1/2/3

    Rotmaw Creeper
    [Replaced Assault for Vigilance as it is likely to get more use than a disengage. It also has race synergy for Creep in the form of a speed boost that this 5 speed unit could certainly use. He can give Masters Rabid]
    - Race changed to Mutant from Mutant, Undead
    - Assault removed from base.
    - Vigilance added to base.

    Blinking Creeper
    [Nothing changed here. Mostly can't think what to do with him. He is decent range with Creep and Creep Master though. So he will have a good time picking and choosing abilities. He can give another Master ranks of Detection]
    - Race changed to Arthropod from Arthropod, Undead

    [A tricky one since he was removed from Creeps. He can grant some pretty damaging upgrades and can also grant a non-vampyre the vampyre race, allowing them to benefit from blood balls and the Blood Crest relic]
    - Race changed to Arthropod, Vampyre from Arthropod, Undead, Vampyre
    - Upgrade Path 1 and Upgrade Path 2 have been swapped around.
    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Aggressive, Multiattack 1, Bloodlust
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Bleed, Life Siphon
    - Creep added to base
    - Cost changed to 80 from 78

    Mindflayer Queen
    [She was also removed from Creeps. Noble Sacrifice with Creep would let her throw around Loyalty at the cost of her health. Masters would also be able to gain Noble Sacrifice. It is a good ability to save for when she is Headless]
    - Creep added to base
    - Iron Will upgrade replaced with Noble Sacrifice (This champion loses 10 HP and target friendly champion that shares a race with this one within 3 spaces gains Loyalty for 8 turns.)
    - Upgrade 1 default upgrade is now Warding
    - Cost changed to 82 from 80

    Phantasmal Creeper
    [Nora Leech is essentially replaced with Nora Link when it is chosen. Curse 1/2 has been removed from upgrades and replaced on base with Hinder Movement that is superior for slowing enemies. Upgrade 1 also grants damage upgrades. These are not overly effective on this unit due to the 50% damage of Hinder, but are excellent Creep Master abilities.]
    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Bravery, Violent, Nora Link (default)
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Magical Aura 1/2/3
    - Nora Leech removed from base
    - Hinder Movement added to base

    - Cost changed to 61 from 58

    Carrion Colossus
    [He is already not undead, go figure. Removed his pointless upgrades and replaced them with Creep Master and Locust Swarm.]
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Creep Master, Locust Swarm, Ravenous Torrent (default)

    Carrionling (LE)
    [Carrionlings will be able to grant Swarm: Carrionling to Masters]
    - Race changed to Fesh, Mutant from Fesh, Undead
    - Upgrade Path 1 and Upgrade Path 2 have been swapped around.
    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Dead Eater, Curse 1, Swarm: Carrionling
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Disease Aura 1, Immunity: Poison, Immunity: Acid
    - Creep added to base
    - Cost changed to 32 from 30

    Carrionling (Common)
    [Carrionlings will be able to grant Swarm: Carrionling to Masters]
    - Race changed to Fesh, Mutant from Fesh, Undead
    - Upgrade Path 1 and Upgrade Path 2 have been swapped around.
    - Upgrade Path 1 is now Dead Eater, Curse 1, Swarm: Carrionling
    - Upgrade Path 2 is now Regeneration 1/2
    - Creep added to base
    - Cost changed to 34 from 32

    Overall these changes let Creeps be used in other BGs with only a minimal sandbagging. Their ability to share their race will allow them to be used effectively with each other in a full Creep BG and also allows them to have other units with good racial synergies included that are not Creeps.

    Creep Masters will use the Creeps to gain abilities and combos of abilities that work well together to work to their full potential. An example would be the Carrion Colossus taking Violent from the Phantasmal Creeper and using it to gain damage with his Disease Aura.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
  10. exiledtyrant

    exiledtyrant Active Member

    I like what's being said about creeps so far. I always envisioned them to be something zombies could pull from and vice versa. The way mutants were ripped into after the revamp was very puzzling. The creep to creep master synergy could be just the foundation it needs to gain some identity.
  11. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    Given that Arthropods are already in a state of flux and Creepers rely on an ability called "Creep," why not overhaul "Creep and Crawl?" I propose the following set of abilities (assuming we embrace the new Arthropod :

    +1 Shrine Deployment Zone when deployed, -1 SDZ when you deploy a non-Arthropod
    (-1 SDZ at the end of each turn if you don't have a friendly champ with Creep/Creep Master?)
    Gains Still Life while 4+ friendly Arthropods are in play

    Creep Master: (could use a better name)
    While in play, +1 SDZ when a friendly Arthropod within 5 squares destroys an opposing champion with a basic attack

    This unit has Climb
    Gains Mobility while 4+ friendly Arthropods are in play

    Spider Frenzy:
    While in play, other friendly Arthropods within 5 squares gain an additional rank of Multiattack

    [SPELL] Creepy Crawlies: (similar to Cultural Contamination)
    All friendly Arthropods with Creep gain Crawl
    All friendly Arthropods with Crawl gain Creep
    (Not sure if Creep Master and Spider Frenzy should be included)

    This would support a "Creeper" theme (FW - Mutant Arthropods) or a "Crawler" (spider) theme (UD - Demon Arthopods) with plenty of room for splits inbetween. Creep Master and Spider Frenzy should be exclusive to FW and UD, respectively, while Creep and Crawl (as separate abilities) can be sprinkled across the other factions (ST, SL, KF etc).
  12. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    *Warning - crazy idea* What if creep master created a deployment zone on kill, on the location the champion occupied?
    yobanchi, gillo, Sirius and 1 other person like this.
  13. Centuros

    Centuros Active Member

    +1 to shrine deployment zone does not feel like it would do much (unless you get a truly ridiculous amount), especially on many maps after you have a font that is closer to the action (and I believe current Creep only extends if you deploy by the shrine, not in the closer font).
    Also, it doesn't even extend your zone bonus.
  14. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    Personally, I love it but it's potentially very problematic. Did you mean when it kills an opposing champion or when the one with creep master dies? Also, it would probably have to be a 1 time use, rather than permanent deployment zone. Just thinking of the font battles.
  15. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    I mean when the creep master kills a champion, maybe a temporary deployment zone, lasting only three turns, that would mean that, considering you don't deploy in the same turn you kill (it's kind of rare to get a kill and still be able to deploy, unless you are already winning) this give the opponent a chance to block it.
    This could be a solution for creepers in maps where his main ability is almost useless (like shattered peaks or tar map) giving them a way to use his extended deployment zone tricks in other situations, giving them more versatility.
  16. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    Right. I also feel like a part of the Creep theme problems are born from what the maps are like and I think that should be adressed. Map sizes vary greatly and I think they should be more consistent. Then you also have various Shrine-to-Shrine distances which are messing with the powerlevel of the pressure Creep can put on an opponent.
  17. gillo

    gillo I need me some PIE!

    It's a theme like any other theme in the game. It has just never been playable.

    Edit: It's expected to be unique and to be a deviation from the standard way of playing, like it was intended.
  18. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    For me, changing the core mechanic of expanding the shrine deployment zone is a no go because it would basically mean that you are doing another theme altogether and it would be like a waste.

    What abilities do you people think would be useful to have in conjuction with the extended deployment zone? brainstorm time, I'll start with the obvius:

    Ping / auras
    Shrine defender
    siren's song / deafening aura
    Antagonize / duel
    Charged 1/2/3 + charge ability
    gillo likes this.
  19. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    I personally view extending the deployment zone as a failed gimmick that either results in the units being OP or useless depending on how easy it is to gain the deployment.

    Loading them up with abilities that capitalize on the assumption that the deployment zone will be large just further shoehorns them into their own corner. :(

    Would personally just prefer a re-make of the ability that lets the units be splashed but still have theme synergy. Similar to zombies/witches.
  20. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    That's why I proposed creep master to help with that! you know, a lot of themes have problems in working at full power always, with varying causes, that doesn't means that the theme has to be ditched, and less when it's relatively easy to circumvent the problems creepers have (as in, we already create deployment zones), as the abilities I listed are useful in any champion in any theme in most cases.
    Your map doesn't allow creep to give you an advantage? well, you'll have a hard time not taking advantage of pseudo reinforcement on the champions you are deploying from the shrine, and if your opponent tries to rush you, he'll have a hard time for sure, top of that, you can potentially get a skywing beacon in fw to go on offensive, or other things.
    I believe the mechanic can be balanced still and it would be sad to see it go.

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