Best alternative bonus contest

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by DiCEM0nEY, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    If FW had to have an alternative bonus, what is the best one u could design ?


    Rules: must be
    Balanced
    Fit into FW as a whole

    My best idea so far would be permanent darkweave. I figure it fits into all themes, still requires FW taking damage, and is unique.
     
  2. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    no
     
    Tweek516 likes this.
  3. Somnolence

    Somnolence The King of Potatoes

    how is it unique if Darkweave already does that?

    How does it fit into FW as a whole?

    How is this balanced? you're giving a permanent FREE darkweave spell.
     
  4. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    permanent Darkwave???





    close the internet


    close the topic


    close the forum
     
  5. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    Could easily be adjusted, I just think the concept is actually unique. Even if its 1 space for 3 turns. Whatever.
    Right now they have a free weakened necroweave spell. It fits in because every single theme they have would benefit from A). Taking damage B). generating DMZ. in fact, its a better fitting bonus than what they have now, since it goes well with witches and vampyres, which really have no synergy with the bonus.

    Feel free to come up with a better idea or ask more questions.
     
  6. voodoov

    voodoov I need me some PIE!

    sry, but iam not smart enugh to post in the same tread as op.


    where was that ignore button?
    edit: sadly cant ignore, the worms discussion still managed to be interesting.
    Why does ignore hide treads i participated in?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  7. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes


    Its ok, ur my #1 fan, you can stay.
     
  8. Somnolence

    Somnolence The King of Potatoes

    I think the better idea is to leave FW's bonus alone because it's really good.
     
  9. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    Good as in well designed, or good as in strong? Because it is strong when abused with certain champions. But is it well designed?

    Well it really is the most unique bonus, so it is well designed in that sense. But it really limits the champions which FW can use.

    I like my idea because it works well with vamypres and witches in their current iteration.
     
  10. Somnolence

    Somnolence The King of Potatoes

    Good as in well designed and strong.

    How does it limit the champs? If you're saying that only low nora cost champs benefit from the bonus, you're wrong because a 91 nora champ like Xulos will have a 6 down cool down, and that itself is great because it means Xulos dying does not mean too much (even less so if you recover his globe) unlike other factions.

    You like your idea because its your idea... You have a very one sided view on this whole game because you haven't played many factions or many themes even in FW. You always compare other themes to skelles and that's not how balance or strength is measured.

    Vamps are getting changed, and witches are fine as they are.

    Also, you're like the 50th person to suggest FW's bonus be changed. You know why it hasn't been changed? Because it's fine.
    You're clearly a competent player, and I, for one, is glad that you care enough to make post after post, even though they cannot be appreciated.
     
    Gnomes likes this.
  11. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    I actually don't use cheap meat. It certainly isn't strong compared to fs or SP, but it does have some value. Life steal is compelety illogical with the bonus so I doubt that will change enough to make a difference.

    Witches have 0 synergy with the bonus was all I said. They'd still be fine if they had permanent darkweave, because they were fine before the Nerf's with bugged deploy. That's my opinion. Would make them more interesting.
     
  12. Somnolence

    Somnolence The King of Potatoes

    Sigh...
    Again, you're comparing two factions when they do different things. SP or FS cheap meat is not the same as FW cheap meat because FW cheap meat comes back faster, and thus can be "abused" faster. SP cheap meat saves more nora then FW, and FS cheap meat is just....idk, efficient?

    I've seen this logic before: vampires don't benefit from FW bonus because they are suppose to survive for as long as possible, maybe that's what you mean by "illogical", but it's completely wrong too. Just because a champ has the ability to survive longer, doesn't mean that it can't benefit from the bonus. If a champ dies, it dies regardless of its abilities, so isn't it a bonus that it gets to come back to the field faster?

    Genesis Lich (a pretty good 70 nora ish champion) is a great example. The champ can be used with Adaptive (an ability that make it want to stay on the board for as long as possible to become a late game champ), and even if it can't be reborn instantly via his relic ability, his CD is like 5, so he can either be a late game champ or just be a pretty good and cheap ranged champion with a LoL attack who can get stronger.

    Vamps can stay on the field longer than most champs, AND come back faster if it dies. Same argument goes for witches. If a champ dies, it benefits from the bonus, doesnt matter what champ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
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  13. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Two true statements:

    1) The strength of the FW bonus is proportional to the duration of the match.
    2) Any deck becomes stronger as it leverages its faction bonus (eg. regen in SL, summons in ST).

    Individual decks and playstyles vary, but FW has always had a tendency for grinding wins out in 30+ turn games. I'd defer to Kalasle on why cheap meat is such a staple in FW (though I think it would have something to do with having a smaller champ count and being able to cram more spells into your deck), but any set of champs benefit from the bonus so long as both players let the game drag on.

    Even durable champs benefit from the bonus. The game has 3000 runes and loads of ways to deal with any specific champ. Any champ will die if you throw enough nora at it. If that champ is FW though, it will come back faster than the spell that your opponent used to take it out and your opponent will have to resort to increasingly inefficient and complex (and the more complex the play, the greater the chances that they will screw it up) plays to deal with the same champion over time. This is how the FW bonus can become a factor for every theme.
     
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  14. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    I use alot of durables in my new deck. U do bring up a great point about how the current bonus nearly guarantees longer games.

    Cheap meat might be more effective because it is less susceptible to player mistakes as well, human error.
     
  15. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    There's a reason why a lot of FW players seem so dismissive of you when you suggest a change to the FW bonus: you are not the first person to suggest it. You are actually closer to the 1000th.

    The FW bonus is always going to be divisive because it comes down to a referendum around "do you like long games?"
    The problem is that a lot of people make the decision to main FW without realizing they were asked this question.

    I've never seen any stats to back this up, but it is "common knowledge" that new players gravitate toward UD, KF, and FW as their faction. If this is true, I think it is due to a sense of familiarity and a general understanding of how demons, elves, and the undead might play. For demons and elves, the bonus reflects just what you'd expect: the scary demons have big melee damage and the elves are fast and good at guerrilla warfare. In popular culture, the undead are much more diverse - between ghosts, werewolves, skeletons and necromancers there are a lot of ways to project a certain playstyle onto how FW might play. If you imagine yourself as a new player, it is easy to confirm UD and KF by looking at their bonuses: +4 melee damage, +1 speed. These are pretty standard ideas for anybody who has ever played a videogame. -60% cooldown? "That could be anything but I think an army of skeletons would be badass so I am playing FW anyway".

    FW is zombies.
    Slow, relentless. They will lose 1000 fights but still win in the end.
    "But I didn't want to be zombies!"

    The thing is, a lot of players do want to be zombies. They want to grind through hour-long games. I forget exactly who said it, but years ago an FW player proposed that longer games were more reflective of "skill" than shorter ones since draws become less of a factor and the balance of "mistakes" on either side would ultimately show who was the better player (nevermind that one deck might be better suited for a longer game). It can be kind of strange to consider that some people enjoy grinding out long games, but those people are out there, and outside of maybe slags in SP, most other factions don't give them the opportunity to consistently play longer games the way FW does.

    I want to be zombies.
     
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  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes


    Refer to what davre said about it, his post was spot on.

    You are thinking about a bonus as free I think when it is not. You are paying for your bonus when you choose what faction you pick. You can pretty much guarantee that +nora per turn is going to have more of an impact, because whether you deploy, or cast a spell, the effect of said spell is going to have a greater impact if played at the right time. And also, you can actually use your bonus whenever you want with FS and SP, which is adds to the worth.

    General statement: try not to think of them as bonuses, but rather as prepaid stats.
     
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Another point to add to this is that choosing your faction isn't about JUST the faction bonus.

    You are picking the faction bonus, the font bonus, the avatar, the rune set. So looking at faction bonus in isolation vs other faction bonus is generally going to be problematic.

    At the same time, it's ALWAYS going to be the case that different themes/builds in each faction is going to leverage the various benefits of the faction (be it font or faction bonus, or the spell set, etc.) in different ways and at different levels of strengths. And I would argue that even if it were possible for every theme/build to benefit equally from all strengths, that's not a desirable goal either.
     
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  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    But we can weigh that faction bonuses are stronger than font bonuses. And that anytime a faction does not leverage their faction bonus, they will try to be split to mitigate their weak bonus.

    Design wise, while there is merit it different levels of power achieved from the bonus, it is illogical for a theme to not get any use whatsoever from their bonus. There is a certain threshold that needs to be leveraged from a bonus, in order to make a theme work with the framework for poxnora itself. Otherwise, the theme would be nearly impossible to balance (overloaded kit). It is best imo to have a theme somewhat relate to their bonus in some regard.

    While some themes pretty clearly do not work right now, I don't think it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to work, I just think they need some new rune additions and possibly mechanics. I also think that my bonus suggestion to give FW permanenet darkweave would benefit the theme as a whole, since it would allow for more unique concepts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  19. IronStylus

    IronStylus I need me some PIE!

  20. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    was originally made for the Leoss, Stitched, Tortuns and kanen. to encourage they only really be played in their own decks together.
     

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