Assessing Creepers (aka Wurmz!)

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by Entrepidus, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    Unfortunately, I can't say I didn't see this coming. This was a concern raised during the pre-patch discussion on Creepers and somewhere along the development chain our specific issues were lost. He was pushed quite handily in the direction of the new Wurmz without properly preserving his role in other themes :S
  2. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    How so? he's still a zombie. How was he stolen away?
    He can still pump out disease auras the only thing he really lost was assimilate which we all know how great that works on a swarming champ.

    I'm failing to see how his change was not if anything good.
  3. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    FW Wurmz - Games 16-20

    Using: CdTCdWs6Zspsgsns1ns7oS4fs5arTR2Pe3e2ye21


    Game 16 - WIN against UD (Budget?) Meta on 3-font Grove of Ashes

    Early Deploys:
    ME: Mindthief Creeper > Bloodworm > (nothing) > Blinking Creeper + Grim Well > Rotmaw Creeper
    THEM: Deep Elf Mercenary > Minotaur Gladiator > Pincushion > Shield of Flame + Dark Pact (Hidden)

    This game played out almost perfectly. I planted Grim Well at the entrance to the mid font preventing my opponent from contesting. His Dark Pact would later redirect an Essence Drain to my Bloodworm (hence almost), but Grim Well allowed me to hold off until the next turn when I tried again with Steal Life. He surrendered when Minotaur Gladiator keeled over as he had yet to successfully attack me and I was up a font and multiple champs.

    A win is a win, but I am hesitant to claim too much credit. Demolish easily could have flipped the table on me and he didn't start scrying until Grim Well hit the board. Had he been scrying the entire time, there's a reasonable chance he would've played the appropriate counter (assuming he had one).

    Game 17 - LOSS to FW/UD Vampyres on 4-font K'thir Hill

    Early Deploys:
    THEM: Flowing Ember > Bloodtracker > (nothing) > Elder Bloodbinder > Cursed Blade
    ME: Eye of Serkan > Mindthief Creeper > Rotmaw Creeper > Mindthief Creeper > Grim Well

    Lacking Shatter made dealing with Bloodtracker a nightmare and ultimately cost me the game. It took four Wurmz to (not) put him down because equips prevented me from dealing enough damage to one-round through Life Siphon. I contested his near font with Grim Well + Mindthief Creeper for several turns thanks to a timely Domi-chasm on Elder Bloodbinder, though. Slowly losing all my Wurmz to Bloodtracker, however, was my cue to bow out.

    I really missed Shatter. . .

    Game 18 - AUTO-LOSS to ST/UD Mitigation on 5-font Nora Glades

    Early Deploys:
    ME: Rotmaw Creeper > Mindthief Creeper > (nothing) > Bloodworm > Carrion Colossus
    THEM: Angel of Pain > Leoss Monk > Nohkan Guide > (nothing) > Tundra Whisper

    First turn Angel of Pain (later received NKD) was too much to handle. I don't have a problem with NKD, specifically, but Wurmz lacks a reliable answer to it outside of Grim Well (ignored by intensify). I couldn't damage anything and the one turn I had an opportunity to do so Masochism was played. I achieved nothing in this game outside of lots of dead Wurmz. Carrion Colossus was, as expected, a wasted deploy due to the ease with which my opponent one-rounded him.

    Game 19 - WIN against ST/UD Circus on 2-font Forsaken Wastes

    Early Deploys:
    ME: Blinking Creeper > (nothing) > Blood Fiend + Rotmaw Creeper > Blood Fiend > (nothing)
    THEM: Obelisk of Foresight + Nefari Guardian > Broodmother > (nothing) > Protect the Nest + Jakei Maiden > Arachnablade + Favor of the Queen

    The game unexpectedly fell into my lap when my opponent marched his Broodmother forward with Bodyguard from Nefari Guardian and attached Arachnablade + Favor of the Queen to it. I immediately dropped Essence Drain + Soulreave to one-round her. He responded by equipping Nefari Guardian with Demon Shield (Soulreave still active) resulting in another easy one-round and a prompt surrender.

    It's worth noting that my rank has dropped significantly since I started this endeavor, and I attribute part of this rollover to my less experienced opponent. It was clear he wasn't aware of FW's toolkit or how certain mechanics worked. His BG composition was all over the place and I'm not about to fool myself into believing that Wurmz made this possible. Any BG would've achieved similar results with Soulreave.

    Game 20 - LOSS to SL Meta on 5-font Nora Glades

    Early Deploys:
    THEM: Valdac > Sunderpede > Prismatic Skywing > (nothing) > Varu Dragon
    ME: > Rotmaw Creeper > Mindthief Creeper > Dusk Creeper + Elsarin Vex > Blood Fiend > Blinking Creeper

    I'm not going to waste time explaining the finer details of the game as it all boils down to a slow, painful grind to the death. The superior efficiency of my opponent's champs resulted in precisely the result you would expect: lots of dead Wurmz. The only champ I managed to kill was Valdac (and summons) who quickly returned to play due to my inability to kill Valdac's Chosen champ.

    This was a text-book loss for text-book reasons. As the 20th game, it perfectly epitomized the shortcomings of Wurmz.



    Carrion Colossus is definitely a wasted slot. I'd remove him if I didn't lack a solid champ to replace him with. Necro Hex is also a waste as I continued to not cast it. I'm convinced it's only useful for SF Wurmz and has no place in FW Wurmz at the moment. Crown of Corruption was interesting, but its not quite as useful as Domination. I've left it in as an option for getting around counterspells and DMZ.

    There isn't much left to say (my opinion on everything else remains the same) before I get started on the FW/SP split. Upon completing that, I'll supply a more organized summary of my thoughts and put together a list of suggesed changes that addresses the issues I've experienced playing Wurmz.


    • Carrion Colossus is out
    • Necro Hex is out
    • Crown of Corruption is just a backup plan
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2014
  4. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    From my experience maintaining the zone is horrendous and siege has never come into play via worm lord.

    IMHO Necrosis needs to at the very minimum lose all mention of decreasing the zone and just become: When this unit is deployed or destroys an enemy UNIT with a basic attack grow your shrine zone (this does not grow your font zone).

    Then see how it rolls
    GabrielQ likes this.
  5. exiledtyrant

    exiledtyrant Active Member

    It comes as a combination of things for zombies at a whole, but if I were to isolate some key points it would be:

    1. He has been delegated to being a 2x2 counter instead of a zombie leader. High cost zombies summons should be the best at a defined role as possible not assigned a grunt utility like 2 x 2 counter. If he's a beater he should be a great beater zombie not out done by abomination. The role should be unique and either be effected by large numbers or effect large numbers. Zombies work in large groups they need their big drops to be accentuated by or facilitate large groups. Vivify was a good start.

    2. Disease is still bad and disease aura being on him doesn't make him anymore cohesive with zombies. Zombies are either disease attrition or swarm beatdown yet he doesn't really excel at either.

    3. Zombies have all there swarms on support champions or tanks both with terrible damage instead of their killers like abom, blade corpse and carrion colossus

    4. His base upgrades and worm upgrades potentially make him an all out better champion when worms get tweaked.
  6. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!


    Just letting you know I've put together my suggestions in the OP. I'll edit in explanations when I get up in the morning, but feel free to give them a once over. This is far more than what you have room for in the upcoming patch, but I figure a checklist of changes to spread over the next several patches will keep things focused. For the one slot you've reserved for Worms this patch, I'd recommend bundling the following:
    • Necrosis + Worm Lord abilities (remove Necrosis from any champion that also has Worm Lord)
    • Necro Hex + Snuff spells
    • Carrionling (Surge: Carrionling to Surge: Worm)
    This, alone, won't make Worms viable, but it will allow us to test the strength of SDZ expansion without shrinkage. Carrion Colossus and Polluted Martyr are indirectly addressed by no longer having to worry about SDZ shrinkage and the Carrionlings will hit harder. The cost reduction of Necrosis and Worm Lord will provide a slight efficiency bump to all Worms and their associated spells will be easier to utilize.
  7. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Nice, I'll take a look concerning this and will bookmark this for later patch notes as well.
  8. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Ok I reviewed just the Necrosis and Wormlord suggestions to this and I have a suggestion.

    Necrosis- I like your streamlining of just having it +1 SDZ on deploy. It solves a lot of issues with maintaining the SDZ growth yet is slow enough to not be detrimental.

    There is a big problem with having this trigger from just regular kills and I'm positive it will be shot down.

    However this did get my brain working... what if worm lord simply increased the growth from deploying...

    New Wormlord-
    When another anthropoid or worm champion is deployed within 6 spaces of this unit increase your SDZ by 1.
    Worms and anthropods within your SDZ gain impassioned.

    This basically doubles deploys and reduces the reliance on Necrosis and enemy kills. It will still require setup but can have some really good growth if left alone to chain deploy worm lord champs.
  9. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    I don't have a problem with this version, but I have to point out it's actually stronger than what I proposed. Early SDZ expansion equates to extra speed and the sooner you drop a Worm Lord, the more apparent this would be. It's precisely the issue players originally had with the +2 SDZ on deploy of the first iteration of creep. SDZ expansion through kills of real champions ties the accelerated expansion to winning engagements while allowing many of the non-basic attacks I've suggested for various Worms to be effective.

    In your version, Worms can expand their SDZ much faster by getting +3 SDZ as early as turn 2. An early Worm Lord deploy almost guarantees every deployment is +2 SDZ whereas the +1 SDZ from kills is directly limited by the number of champs your opponent deploys and your ability to reach them. Both players can plan around the +1 SDZ from kills while the opponent can't address the +2 SDZ per deployment other than to dive the Worm Lord which, if played intelligently, will hang back just far enough to continue triggering the double SDZ expansion.

    Also, SDZ from kills feels more appropriate because my SDZ reached the mid font around the time of the first engagement in many of my matches. My main problem with Necrosis was that after that first engagement started, my SDZ would shrink too quickly for me to use it. Removing shrinkage is already a solid improvement and shifting the SDZ from kills to Worm Lord rather than any champ with Necrosis increases the likelihood that SDZ acceleration won't come into effect until the mid/late game where Worms struggle the most.

    Again, I'm entirely open to your version, but I'd recommend suggesting both versions to the PCR to allow them to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with.
    WraithxxV likes this.
  10. XFurionsX

    XFurionsX I need me some PIE!

    So to revive this thread, the creepers work? yeah? or nah?
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  11. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    i love serkens eye. and dusk creeper is cool.
  12. XFurionsX

    XFurionsX I need me some PIE!

    But what would be the ultimate worm bg? the eye can't carry the whole theme.
  13. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    creepers having final word as a racial, lol
  14. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    errr worms*
  15. XFurionsX

    XFurionsX I need me some PIE!

    Creepers need to hit harder, only ones that are a serious treat are the eyes, martyr, collosus and blood fiend.
    OriginalG1 likes this.
  16. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    FF (FW) Wurmz definitely doesn't work right now.

    I've provided the test games and my opinions throughout the thread (summarized in OP with suggested changes). There are a couple key changes @yobanchi will be pushing for in the upcoming patch that will at least make the core mechanic more functional. At that point I'll take another swing at it. I know they'll still be a subpar theme, but hopefully it will then be because the individual champions need some efficiency taps and not because their thematic abilities are sandbags.
  17. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    Just a quick bump to let folks know I'll be testing Wurmz again after the slight adjustment to Necrosis (and Snuff!). It definitely won't make the theme viable, but I'm hoping this'll make SDZ expansion reliable enough that future changes can focus on improving the individual Wurmz. Look for updates in the near future.
  18. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    The change to Necrosis I think will be very significant as the only way to decrease the zone now is by deploying non-anthropods/worms.

    This will be very interesting ^_^
  19. Shell Dorado

    Shell Dorado The King of Potatoes

    I noticed that immediately, and FW/UD could be a powerful split for the Wurmz. I'd do some experimentation if I had the resources for the big Worms, let along the big Arthropods.

    Anybody up to building a Arthropod-infused Worms deck and give us the low down on how it goes?
  20. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    I'll be starting with the FF FW Wurmz shown in this thread, first. If it doesn't fall on its face like the first iteration, I have the FW/SP version ready and can easily put together an FW/SL or FW/UD Arthropods variant. Let me know which you prefer as I intend to play a lot after this patch. I have ST Crystal, Faeries and Wurmz on my docket for testing.

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